16-08-2002 19:24									#1
	diplomacy bug ? Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

hi,

i'm quite new to this forum although i played civ2 a lot
and now civ3

I have installed patch 1.29
i picked americans and i was far away technologically and
military from the others.
But after a while, 3 others civs started to shares their tech
so now i'm very late in science although i have the best
scientific network

I tried to pay for their tech but none of them accept
I tried everything , money, luxery goods, nothing
their attitude towards me are polite , i give them also gift
but they all don't accept

Is this a bug problem or am i doing something wrong ?

	16-08-2002 20:07									#2
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

It could be that they're building GW. If thats so I've found it almost impossible to get those techs (just as you wouldnt trade them to the AI if you were building a GW). Having an embassy will also help.

	16-08-2002 20:14									#3
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thanks for your answer

i have another query
is it possible to see how is your reputation ?

	16-08-2002 20:29									#4
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Unlike earlier games, you have to pay attention to the way the game interacts with you (facial animations etc) and the comments in the diplomacy screen ie "Xerxes is furious with you" etc.

	17-08-2002 01:44									#5
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I think that if you treat a civ badly, it won't damage your reputation with other civs unless they actually find out about it -- i.e., make contact with the civ you screwed (or someone else who has contact with that civ, etc.?). At least that's the impression I've gotten from some other posts. Might be a handy thing to keep in mind.

You can check which Great Wonders are being built or have been built, and by whom, by pressing F7 (I think. One of those F keys anyway). That should help you to check SpencerH's hypothesis. Of course, as long as a Wonder hasn't been built yet, the AI might still plan to build it, I suppose.

	17-08-2002 12:38									#6
	Inflate your Upload Space

JohnM--Only problem with that line of reasoning (reputation and contact with other civs) is that with all the tech- and contact-whoring the AI does, others will hear of your wicked, wicked ways soon enough.

If I may borrow the thread for a moment to bring it full-circle, does anyone else feel like you're invited to join in on the whoring more now with 1.29f? That is, like the AI is less likely to flat refuse you? (Obviously, Federico, you have a different experience there. They don't want to let you in at all still, eh?)

	18-08-2002 02:28									#7
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quote: Originally posted by khyron JohnM--Only problem with that line of reasoning (reputation and contact with other civs) is that with all the tech- and contact-whoring the AI does, others will hear of your wicked, wicked ways soon enough.

True enough. Just thought I'd mention that, as others might not know about it. Also, there are special situations where it could be useful. If you start out on an island with one other civ, you can screw them royally without worrying your reputation so long as you destroy them before they have the chance to meet anyone else. Not that I would endorse this sort of underhanded tactic myself! Unless, of course, the civ had been mean to you...

	21-08-2002 20:43									#8
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Speaking of diplomatic relations, what are the rules of etiquette in Civ3? They seem to have changed from the previous two versions.

I'm running 2.21f on the Mac, and it seems that no matter how well I treat my neighbors, at some point, they all turn nasty. It depends on how strong I am in relation to them. There comes a time when an AI with whom I had had good relations for a long time hands me an ultimatum like "Give me all your gold and your best tech for nothing, or else!" Previous experience indicates that giving in only encourages that sort of thing, and my initial reaction, anyway, is to tell them to buzz off. Unfortunately, unlike in 2 there is no polite way to do that in 3. Similarly in 3, when an AI sends troops into my territory uninvited, I have no choice of response. Sometimes I'm offered "They MUST be removed." and sometimes "Get out or decalre war." Never both. The latter often appears when I'm already engaged in a fight with the blackmailer previously described.

I realize that weakness alone has always been an invitation to threats and attack. I address one aspect of that in another thread.

	22-08-2002 17:24									#9
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I'm running 2.21f on the Mac, and it seems that no matter how well I treat my neighbors, at some point, they all turn nasty.


i agreed with you, i've been very to all of them trading and
also giving them tech and gold and then they attacked me
and they all did because i'm the most powerful military and
economically and scientifically. i guess there all jealous.
The thing that is boring me the most, is there's no way to see
what is your reputation ( as we could do in civ2)

	22-08-2002 20:07									#10
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by federico ... and then they attacked me and they all did because i'm the most powerful military and economically and scientifically. i guess there all jealous. The thing that is boring me the most, is there's no way to see what is your reputation ( as we could do in civ2)

That's happened to me too. I understand that. There is also no way that I have found to see what technologies the other players have that you don't. If I want to trade techs I have to open negotiations first, and sometimes leave with nothing for either me or the other guy. This may annoy them, but I see no way around it, except isolation, or waiting until I have some commodity to trade, which is sometimes never. Even then, the player I can trade goods with is not always the one I can trade techs with.

	23-08-2002 00:42									#11
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You can sometimes guess that an AI might have the tech buy looking at what they are doing. You can also tell if SOMEONE has a tech because the cost of research will go down.

As far as I can tell the AI doesn't get annoyed if you contact them and don't trade. Maybe if you do it a lot. What I do just in case is I usually make some sort of trade. Maps for instance. If you trade maps frequently the cost will stay low. Often the foreign advisor will say that an equal trade is insulting but if you offer a mere 5 GP they are willing but this is only if you aren't way behind on the map.

I often make small gifts as well. I try to make some sort of trade most of the time unless I am looking for a fight. Its good to get the AI to start the war. Especially on your turn if they don't have an MPP with anyone.

	23-08-2002 01:46									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Ethelred You can also tell if SOMEONE has a tech because the cost of research will go down.

It will? I didn't realize techs that have already been discoved cost less to research... are you sure about that?

RMeigs, unlike in Civ II, the AIs don't seem to get annoyed just because you contact them. I've also never seen one refuse my emissary, unless we were at war. Perhaps even more than expanded trading options, this allows for a lot more diplomacy than in Civ II.

You can only tell in diplomacy if another civ has a tech you can research, since you can't trade for a tech until you have the prerequisites.

It would sure be nice if there were a screen where we could look at lists of all the things other civs have to trade, and all the things we could trade to them. Of course, there isn't, so we have to open negotiations with each other civ one at a time to even find out what they all have and want.

	23-08-2002 06:28									#13
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quote: It will? I didn't realize techs that have already been discoved cost less to research... are you sure about that?

Absolutely. The cost of a tech is inversely proportional to the number of Civs that know it. You can easily see that when you start a game on a standard map. If know had any techs they would all take fourty turns at the very beginning. Some take less time and those are ones know to some else. As goody huts are popped the tech cost goes down.

Besides someone at Firaxis confirmed it a long time ago. There was even a discusion with Firaxis about limiting the decrease to slow down the tech discovery rate on the higher levels.

quote: It would sure be nice if there were a screen where we could look at lists of all the things other civs have to trade, and all the things we could trade to them.

You can see the resources they have available for trade in the F2 Trade advisor screen. In the F4 Foreign Advisor screen the FA will tell you if a Civ has any surplus resources IF you have the trade agreement tab active. If you have the Diplomatic treaty tab active he tells you about military issues instead.

	24-08-2002 06:10									#14
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Ethelred The cost of a tech is inversely proportional to the number of Civs that know it. You can easily see that when you start a game on a standard map. If know had any techs they would all take fourty turns at the very beginning. Some take less time and those are ones know to some else. As goody huts are popped the tech cost goes down.

When I do the math, it always appears that the cost of a tech is the cost in the editor times a constant multiplier (which depends on map size and possibly difficulty level), with a maximum number of turns of 40 and a minimum of 4. That is, [turns to research tech] = [cost (in editor)]*[constant multiplier]/[science spending (beakers)] (rounded up). Some techs cost less than 40 turns in the beginning because they are cheaper than the others, since unlike in previous Civ games all techs do not cost the same amount to research at any given time. A tech takes less turns to research as time goes on because more workers are producing commerce, and thus (if you don't decrease the science rate) you are putting more commerce into science.

quote: Originally posted by Ethelred Besides someone at Firaxis confirmed it a long time ago. There was even a discusion with Firaxis about limiting the decrease to slow down the tech discovery rate on the higher levels.

Are you sure they didn't just say that the AI sells the same tech for less as it becomes more widely available?

quote: Originally posted by Ethelred You can see the resources they have available for trade in the F2 Trade advisor screen. In the F4 Foreign Advisor screen the FA will tell you if a Civ has any surplus resources IF you have the trade agreement tab active. If you have the Diplomatic treaty tab active he tells you about military issues instead.

But I want to be able to see everything that each civ can trade to me and everything that I can trade to them, not just luxuries and resources, and I want to be able to see it all at a glance. To do this, I need to open negotiations with every other civ, and, if there are is a large number of civs, write down what I find out if I actually want to keep track of it all. This is annoying, and it shouldn't be necessary.

	24-08-2002 21:19									#15
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Well, it would appear that my skepticism was unwarranted. To test this out, I started a new game on a Tiny map. All of the techs cost 16 times the "cost" in the editor, except for the ones my only contact, the Iroquois, also have, which are available at 27/32 the normal cost. This suggests that only the costs of techs posessed by civs you have contact with are reduced. Assuming it's reduced further for each civ you know with that tech, that means that contact with other civs is extra valuable; not only will civs be willing to sell you a tech for less, but it will cost less to research too. I would be interested to know just how much less, because that would help me to both plan my own research and sell and buy techs from the AI. Obviously, a civ should be willing to pay less gold for a tech they can research for less. Does anyone have an exact formula?

quote: Originally posted by Ethelred There was even a discusion with Firaxis about limiting the decrease to slow down the tech discovery rate on the higher levels.

They should make it modifiable in the editor, too.

	25-08-2002 02:49									#16
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quote: Originally posted by JohnM2433 All of the techs cost 16 times the "cost" in the editor...

The editor is not available yet to Mac users, so where can we find out what the basic cost or research is?

	26-08-2002 00:20									#17
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I did some more experimenting in the same game, and it appears that the cost is approximately 54/64 of normal if 1 other civ I know has the tech, 44/64 for 2 other civs, and 35/64 for 3. Since this was on a Tiny map (to avoid hitting the minimum reseach rate and make the tech costs small and easy to calculate in the beginning), there are no other civs to find, but I'm sure someone could figure out the rest using another game or a mod. Maybe I'll even get around to it myself.

Does anyone know if the relative decrease depends on the map size or the number of civs in the game?