17-08-2002 09:34									#1
	Impeachment Got spare money?

Firstly, I want to say that I'm not calling this of my own volition, but in the role of Vice-President. I'm not convinced of either point, as such, will probably abstain. However, as Vice-President, it's my job to call this poll, as it has been requested.

Secondly, in the event of impeachment, as the next in line for the throne, I would prefer snap elections. I'm not keen on having to take the reins at this stage.

EDIT: I forgot to put a time limit on this poll. If it's possible, can a mod please make it five days?

Last edited by Darkness' Edge on 17-08-2002 at 10:02

	17-08-2002 09:46									#2
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I'm going to abstain. I'd rather give him a turn or 2 to try and get things down, and then let the elections speak for whether we want him back.

	17-08-2002 10:53									#3
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No. I believe in second chances, and if we lose the game 'cause of a lousy start so what? It may give us new strategies to try out if we have to start from behind. I think john is a little taken aback at the outcry, and genuinely wants to be a good Prez. Now that we have told him what we want him to do as Prez, I think things will be smoother from now on.

If not, it will almost be the end of the month anyway.

	17-08-2002 11:12									#4
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I've thought about this, and it's not an easy decision, but I've decided to vote yes.

I'm trying to find the post that convinced me...I can't remember where I found it.

Sorry, john...

	17-08-2002 15:00									#5
	I have voted Got spare money?

I will not say how i voted but i would like to say this.
Everyone involved here enjoys playing civ type games, if we didn't we would not be involved in this game.
Some people find enjoyment only by winning the games and would not enjoy playing a game out that they knew had started badly, this is ok.
Some people get enjoyment in playing games where they are always struggling and often lose but sometimes beat the odds and win, this is ok.
Some people even use the cheat menu to cheat and make sure they win , this is ok.

All I ask is that you think very carefully before voting to impeach the president that you are doing it within the spirit of the democracy game and not just because you feel we cannot win, for although some people will not enjoy playing a game from this disadvantaged possition, others will infact find it much more enjoyable than the first game which turned into a very easy win.

	17-08-2002 16:16									#6
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I really hoped this didn't happen...

I'll only say 2 things:

1) Before we started this game almost everybody was screaming that the AI is so incompetent that we should give it a chance, we would restrict ourselves in the most horrible ways so it wasn't an easy win.Now at the first sign this game might not be an "accidentally kill all AI and win the game"-game I hear some shout we should get rid of such a "bad" president...we have only played about 40 turns...yes we don't have an immense number of techs...so what last game we didn't gather all techs either.We will not start building wonders in the first 2 cabinet turns...may I remind you that I (beeing a naughty boy) build our first wonders and I wasn't the first or even the second president.
This time there might even be a chance(if enough things go wrong in the next 2 cabinets) to get it a little bit interesting.
(of less importance,but just to give an idea of how good the AI is)
2)yesterday I started a new game and used the accelerated start mode(and immediatly remembered why I never use it): I had in 2000BC 2cities and the only explored terrain was that inside the cities.(and a bunch of units I didn't want)

I say No, and I hope/believe John will follow the orders of his cabinet next session.

*tosses yet an other spear at the scorebord*

Shade

	17-08-2002 17:02									#7
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Give him another chance

*thinks of my other post about this*

	17-08-2002 17:46									#8
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quote: Originally posted by shade *tosses yet an other spear at the scorebord*

*ducks spear and laughs *

well said former president shade.

*ducks another spear *

	17-08-2002 17:52									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Hydey *ducks spear and laughs *

woeps, sorry

quote: *ducks another spear *

here you have a new spear,try it yourself

Shade

	17-08-2002 17:57									#10
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quote: Originally posted by shade here you have a new spear,try it yourself

*waits for shade to turn his back*

	17-08-2002 17:57									#11
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I LOVE YOU APOLYTON, 1-5-1! (anyways, whats "Abstain" )

	17-08-2002 18:01									#12
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Don't look now John, Shade has armed me with a spear

	17-08-2002 18:01									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Hydey *waits for shade to turn his back*

*activates his personal EM-repulsivefield(something he found in a cave wich must have been invented by the old Apolytonian empire before it collapsed) and walks away totally relaxed*

Shade

	17-08-2002 18:04									#14
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quote: Originally posted by 123john321 (anyways, whats "Abstain" )

= I don't vote YES nor NO (something like YES=+1, NO=-1 and ABSTAIN=+0)

Shade,*still relaxed by the light blue glow of the EMRF*

	17-08-2002 20:10									#15
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after seeing how poorly john followed my minister's report after the last round, and his continued display of going it on his own, overstepping his powers, i vote yes

	17-08-2002 23:28									#16
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I voted yes on the poll.

Minister of Expansions thoughts on this:

Although I believe in giving people a second chance most people dont seem to realise that the future of our glorious Apolytonian nation. :

I think that at this point the current president is not doing a good job, he took a lot of important decisions without consulting the combined knowledge and wisdom of his ministers staff and the people.

And in some cases just plainly ignored them, with the result our country is falling behind in the quest for development

I think we need to replace him by someone who is willing to do all mentioned above.

Lets hang him from the biggest tree in Melfort we can find

atawa's thoughts on this:

Dont take this the wrong way John, the above is just rollplaying in the spirit of the game.

It would have been better if you first served a couple of terms as a minister before going for president.

In a sence we are all to blame for this as nobody spoke up at the start of the game on this issue.

I hope you'll continue playing the game, as actuaaly you provided us with almost more exitement in a couple of turns then there was in the entire last game

	18-08-2002 00:40									#17
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I voted to impeach, but I want to make my reasons clear.

It isn't that I worry we won't win, because the playing of the game is the important thing to me. Sure, winning is good, but I have been excited by games I lost, too.

And I don't want to start over with the same President and Cabinet. It isn't our difficult position that bothers me, nor John's personal game strategy (hey, fewer but stronger cities can be interesting).

It is that he hasn't understood the participatory nature of a Democratic game. It's not that John plays badly (he may have a successful strategy), and it is not because we have gotten off to a slow start (these things can be corrected.

It is that John doesn't quite get the way to perform the job as President. That's merely inexperience with this style of game, not any criticism of his game-playing ability. He just got into a position that he hasn't had an opportunity to fully understand yet by being new to this style of play.

I salute his willingness and desire to serve; I just think he needs some experience at other forms of participation before taking on the rather demanding task of President.

The President has to intuitively understand that he/she is in the job to *represent* all the Citizens, not merely to play an individual game and report on it from time to time.

And, BTW, 3 days is long enough for any poll. There are few voters after 3 days (I watch that kind of thing). 80 to 90% of all votes are cast in the first 2 days. Longer polls just delay actions and discourage some participants from staying around.

John, please understand that this is not in any way personal. I would act the same if a friend were in the same position.

	18-08-2002 00:53									#18
	Re: Impeachment Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Darkness' Edge Firstly, I want to say that I'm not calling this of my own volition, but in the role of Vice-President. I'm not convinced of either point, as such, will probably abstain. However, as Vice-President, it's my job to call this poll, as it has been requested. Secondly, in the event of impeachment, as the next in line for the throne, I would prefer snap elections. I'm not keen on having to take the reins at this stage. EDIT: I forgot to put a time limit on this poll. If it's possible, can a mod please make it five days?

I understand fully that you opened the poll because it was your job as VP to do so. You are entirely correct in this.

But are you also stating that you will not accept the job as President (which is also your responsibility) and are throwing the job open to all interested parties?

I understand if you feel that you are not prepared to take the responsibility; honesty is important, and it eliminates any possible conflict of interest on your part. If it is because you are concerned that you cannot improve our current game situation, keep in mind that you will have the advice of the Cabinet and need only carry out their suggestions.

If we go through with the impeachment of the current President, I think it would be best for the game if the VP took over the reins of Government unless you think you would have the same misunderstanding of the job as John.

Just some thoughts from someone who has "been there, done that"...

	18-08-2002 06:31									#19
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out of curiousity, is it a two thirds required vote to impeach? or just a simple majority?

	18-08-2002 06:34									#20
	Re: Re: Impeachment Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by cavebear I understand if you feel that you are not prepared to take the responsibility; honesty is important, and it eliminates any possible conflict of interest on your part. If it is because you are concerned that you cannot improve our current game situation, keep in mind that you will have the advice of the Cabinet and need only carry out their suggestions.

I declined taking the reins in the event of impeachment for two reasons. Firstly, I want to eliminate any conflict of interest. Secondly, I didn't think I could improve our situation. While the second one may be unnecessary, the first remains. But thanks.

	18-08-2002 08:24									#21
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quote: Originally posted by H Tower out of curiousity, is it a two thirds required vote to impeach? or just a simple majority?

i think it'd have to be a simple majority, as we have no constitution to decide such issues...

	18-08-2002 13:56									#22
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Its getting very close, what happens if it is a tie ?

	18-08-2002 17:07									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Hydey Its getting very close, what happens if it is a tie ?

it is 5-5-1

	18-08-2002 17:17									#24
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In the event of a tie, surely we'd have to retain john as president. For the impeachment to pass, it'd have to get a majority.

	18-08-2002 17:36									#25
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Very messy indeed.



I would agree that it would need to be a majority.

	18-08-2002 17:52									#26
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*steps forward toward horn*

euhm I'm thinking of something practical now: If you want to impeach John (wich I don't think he deserves, give him at least a second chance ... ) we will need a new president...
Darkness'Edge already declined and I see no-one stepping foreward for this job.(actually we barely saw ppl stepping forward to do any job last ellections that's why some jobs got combined.)

Although the accusations might sound overwhelming they aren't.If john's reign had started in the 17th century I would agree, I would even ask to send him to the guillotine but now...
He disobeyed the orders of his cabinet,all 2 of them...or was there only one...actually... he followed the order to explore...he went east as far as he could.
In regard of his science job, his goal was monarchy and he's going in that direction.
Building orders--> there weren't any how could he then not follow them .
The only real complaint he should be facing is the fact he waited to long to inform the cabinet of our situation...He should not have played that many turns...but what would have been the difference if he stopped 15 turns earlier?(now he played 42 or something)We haven't yet found anyone else?(so foreign would have nothing to do) maybe with some luck the barracks would not have been build and we could have changed it to a settler...this would have given some work to our expansion minister.
The millitary advisor would have had to copy his last poll(woho excitement )
and our science advisor would only say:" continue researching for monarchy.Yes fellow countrymen we have to remember that when one starts a new civilization the (re)invention of the old knowledge from before the collapse of the first Apolytonian empire will take many many years to invent.The years of one invention every year will return but it will take some time.

Instead of wasting our time by trying to impeach our first president,and so creating a precedent we actually don't want, the cabinet should be creating/polling strickt orders for the next session.
As a sign of good faith our president should play a session of only 10(±1) turns following these orders as close as possible, and he should create a thorough report including all important things that happen(barbs/huts/other nations/...)supported by screenshots.

Last of all I have one personal question for our president:"can you tell me how many barbs we have met?(and killed)"

thank you all for listening.

*steps away, takes an other spear of one of the warriors and tosses it in the direction of the scorebord*

Shade

	18-08-2002 23:51									#27
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1. I agree that the only valid complaint has been a lack of communication from our President. However, for me, that *is* the problem. I don't mind Leaders having differring game-strategies. Indeed, I *expect* it. That's one of the more interesting aspects of this style of game.

But communication is essential, and that has been lacking. The Ministers can't do much without information, and the Citizens can't participate if the Ministers can't post polls or suggest discussion topics.

We saw the Capital established and then, nothing for 2 weeks (the 47th turn). This is not acceptable.

2. If a major concern in impeaching the President is a lack of replacements, then I will place my name in nomination if a new President is required (hoping that others would also step forward).

	19-08-2002 01:41									#28
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or we could just leave it unitl its next time its elections.

	19-08-2002 02:11									#29
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If John is impeached, I will gladly nominate myself for president.

	19-08-2002 02:20									#30
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It's 6-5 for impeachment now.

I think the poll ends tomorrow, if by that time we have a majority for impeachment I suggest opening a 2-day poll on his succesion between ixnay37 and other contestants that step forward in the next day.

I do not seek the presidency right now as I still havent figured out how to post screenshots