18-08-2002 22:43									#1
	What units upgrade to something better? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I can't find in the manual which units upgrade to something else. Or what a great unit upgrades from.

Right now I am playing Persia. Do you have to create Immortals from scratch, or will they upgrade from some lower unit?

Is there a chart somewhere that covers all this?

Thanks.
sboog

	18-08-2002 23:31									#2
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At first, I thought I would suggest you look in the civilopaedia, sboog... but the info is not obvious enough there (actually, the upgrade info on UUs is missing completely!). Here go the upgrade chains I am able to recall:

(Jaguar) Warrior -> Immortals/Legionary/Swordsman

Spearman/Hoplite/Impi -> Pikeman -> Musketman/Musketeer -> Rifleman -> Infantry -> Mechanized Infantry

Catapult -> Cannon -> Artillery -> Radar Artillery

Archer/Bowman -> Longbowman

(War) Chariot -> Horsemen/Mounted Warrior -> Knight/Rider/Samurai/War Elephant -> Cavalry/Cossack

Tank/Panzer -> Modern Armor

Galley -> Caravel -> Galleon -> Transport

Fighter -> Jet Fighter/F-15

EDIT: Scout -> Explorer (thanks, Armiture!)

Outside of upgrade chains: AEGIS Cruiser, Army, Battleship, Bomber, Carrier, Cruise Missile, Destroyer, Frigate, Helicopter, ICBM, Ironclad, Leader, Man-O-War, Marine, Nuclear Submarine, Paratrooper, Privateer, Settler, Stealth Bomber, Stealth Fighter, Submarine, Tactical Nuke, Worker

If there is anything I put wrong (I haven't played all the civs yet), let somebody correct me as soon as possible, please, until too many people get mislead! I will edit my post not to spread false info... Thanks!

Last edited by vondrack on 19-08-2002 at 01:20

	19-08-2002 00:17									#3
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Scouts can be upgraded, once, but it's a great upgrade because explorers treat all terrain as having roads.

Scout -> Explorer

	19-08-2002 00:48									#4
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Thank you so much, Vondrack and Armiture.

This is so very helpful. Have not been able to find the info anywhere.

Am printing it out right now!

sboog

	19-08-2002 05:09									#5
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I've always wondered why Longbowmen don't upgrade to Musketmen (or at least Riflemen), and Cavalry don't upgrade to Tanks. They would seem like logical upgrades to me.

Longbowmen mostly disappeared from European armies because the musket required far less training and practice for the rank and file to become effective with. In most respects as an offensive weapon, the longbow was still superior to the musket even into the early part of the 19th century. There just weren't enough people who could use it right.

And the Tank really was the successor to the horse cavalry. It just took some militaries a little while to realize it.

Hmmm... thinking about it.... Longbowmen probably should merge into the main infantry line at riflemen, not musketmen. I could see a lot of complaints about Longbowmen appearing at Invention and disappearing right away with Gunpowder. Even though that is really what happened.

But I don't see much of a problem with a Cavalry -> Tank upgrade personally.

	19-08-2002 07:11									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Bleyn and Cavalry don't upgrade to Tanks. They would seem like logical upgrades to me.

Horse -> Tank

You sure that's logical?

quote: Originally posted by Bleyn But I don't see much of a problem with a Cavalry -> Tank upgrade personally.

I can see the point you raise but cavalry really just died out - Tanks are a class of their own. They are faster and add armour to the equation. On the basis of vulnerable but fast moving soldiers it would better upgrade to a 'Mobile Infantry' unit (with jeeps/trucks). That is more the formula - good attack~bad defense~fast~no blitz.

	19-08-2002 07:13									#7
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Spearman/Hoplite/Impi -> Pikeman -> Musketman/Musketeer -> Rifleman -> Infantry -> Mechanized Infantry

Catapult -> Cannon -> Artillery -> Radar Artillery

Its these two chains I sort of disagree with. Normal infantry should never have gone totally redundant (but they'd need a good feature - invisibility or something) and artillery is still used today. That 'radar' artillery should be seperate but have a different use (maybe expensive super long rocket range or short lethal range).

But these are my ramblings

A few Civ units are in need of upgrade - swordsman / ironclad / anything without upgrade. I know PTW is fixing the sowrdsman though...

Last edited by NeoStar on 19-08-2002 at 07:21

	19-08-2002 08:28									#8
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quote: Originally posted by sboog Thank you so much, Vondrack and Armiture. This is so very helpful. Have not been able to find the info anywhere. Am printing it out right now! sboog

If you need to know more, just have a look in the editor. It's all in there.

	19-08-2002 09:25									#9
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You can also in the Editor make all units upradeable. As should be the case. But UU's you should NOT be able to upgrade to.

	19-08-2002 11:09									#10
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Well, in real world terms we have cavalry slowly dissapearing around the time tanks are appearing. Although in the Great War they fought along side each other or against each other. In game terms I actually upgrade my cavalry to armor and since 1.29f this seems to work very good.

As for longbowmen I have them upgrade to Musketman, although in my mod Musketmen appear with Metallurgy and not gunpowder (that's where my cannons appear).

I basically don't like it when I have warriors or swordsmen roaming around in the industrial or modern era, that's why I upgrade every unit to what I felt was the most logical choice.


So long...

	19-08-2002 17:01									#11
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quote: Originally posted by The Pioneer I basically don't like it when I have warriors or swordsmen roaming around in the industrial or modern era, that's why I upgrade every unit to what I felt was the most logical choice.

The AI shoots itself in the foot because those units are left to be built. I honestly believe Firaxis got so caught up with their upgrade system that they forgot the simply obselete effect.

	19-08-2002 18:56									#12
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I 'm all for having every unit upgradeable and older units made unbuildable once obsolete.

	19-08-2002 19:25									#13
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quote: Originally posted by The Pioneer As for longbowmen I have them upgrade to Musketman, although in my mod Musketmen appear with Metallurgy and not gunpowder (that's where my cannons appear).

I think Rifleman is a better choice. First of all it requires no resources, so the Longbow is guarenteed to disappear from the list. And also the American colonists had muskets in the early days, and they got their asses kicked by the natives a number of times at first. But by the time of the Civil War, which is what I believe the Rifleman represents, the Indians were pretty much beaten.

Flintlock muskets took a long time to load, which gave an enemy plenty of time to get within range to attack, especially an archer.

	19-08-2002 21:52									#14
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The rumor is that PTW will have a guerilla unit that all obsolete foot units can upgrade to (no resources). The rifleman is a bad choice because it is a defensive unit.

	19-08-2002 22:49									#15
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quote: Originally posted by WarpStorm The rumor is that PTW will have a guerilla unit that all obsolete foot units can upgrade to (no resources). The rifleman is a bad choice because it is a defensive unit.

The Rifleman has both flags selected, so it can be used either way. And I could be wrong, but I think that guerilla unit is to be a hidden nationality unit, not just an upgrade for other units.