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vondrack
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Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:21
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quote:
Originally posted by fittstim
Really!?!?! I didn't know that 
The point isn't whether a few loyal/warped pilots volunteered/were welded into the cockpit of a plane that was then loaded with explosives. The point is that the Kamikaze is not a "unit" any more than a "suicide bomber" or the opium-hazed Assassins of the Crusades era would be. They are blips on the screen. A sorry few compared to the real units of the armed forces.
Imagine having a waring strategy that was based on killing your own soldiers. What person would support such a thing? The cities would immediately rise up and rebel - switch to a more decent society.
If you want to make the point, then you should make a kamikaze unit appear randomly and rarely - much like a leader. Then you could have your wacko-kamikaze units but wouldn't be able to have a war strategy based on amassing dozens of units. |
fittstim,
the Japanese used kamikaze pilots en mass throughout the late WW2, when desperately trying to stop the US from reaching the Japanese homeland. It was not just a few of them, they were ending their lives in hundreds. Also, the Japanese cities did not appear to rise up and rebel because of that, if you mention it. Actually, becoming a kamikaze was highly esteemed in the Japanese society. It had to do much with the cultural background of the nation.
Saying "what person would..." etc. is much like saying "what person would support suicidal Palestinian bomb-attackers?". However unbelievable and unsupportable this seems to Western people, these things happen and are apparently quite ok with other nations, which have different cultural background.
Said that, I would still not support a kamikaze unit to be included, mostly because even though they were used in big numbers, they were not very effective and meant very little as far as the military importance was concerned.
BTW... although the principle of kamikaze was tied mostly to planes/pilots, it was used, to an extent, with ships, too... The Japanese battleship Yamato (one of the grandest battleships ever built) joined by several smaller vessels ended her life in a futile attempt to suicidally intercept the US fleet. Had fuel enough to make it to the place of encounter only, but not back. Sunk by American naval bombers before having a slightest chance to fire a single shot...
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Coracle
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Japanese kamikazes were a DESPERATION measure that came late in World War Two.
Unless Civ 3 breaks down into monthly turns it really is unrealistic to have them as they lasted in fact for a very short time.
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Thrawn05
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All Your Posts Are Belong To Ming
Dec 2001
time: 00:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Coracle
Yes, those Civ 2 days. How we miss them.
Bombers in Civ 3 are a pain for many reasons besides being relatively ineffective and having much too short a range.
In Civ 2 bombers could INTERDICT tiles. In otherwords, you could leave your bomber on a tile and unles it could be shot down the enemy could not move onto it. This was very useful for invasions.
Try interdicting the area around a planned invasion site now with Civ 3! You would need WAVES of bombers trying to destroy the roads and RR's, if not shot down.
That, combined with the crazy unlimited MP's on RR's, makes invasions very difficult to succeed owing to the counterattack. |
Pretty sweet, but I must admit, I never played Civ2  . I do play Civ1 for the SNES, and I like the air combat on that.
Jets move, destroy a target, and must return within the same turn to a city or carrier, or city to carrier or vise versa.
Bombers take up to 2 turns in the air. Which means they can move I think 16 tiles, and then the turn move another 16.
That system I liked.
It's good to be the KING!
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MarkG
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Grand Lord of Apolyton, Owner of all this land as far as the eye can see
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quote:
Originally posted by Coracle
Yes, those Civ 2 days. How we miss them. |
why dont you go back to it then?
and yes, after the continuing lack of replies to my posts, i can post my favorite part of the song that was obviously written for coracle, even if he probably wasnt born at the time
quote:
Brave Sir Robin ran away,
Bravely ran away, away.
When danger reared its ugly head, he bravely turned his tail and fled.
Yes, brave Sir Robin turned about
And gallantly, he chickened out. Bravely taking to his feet,
He beat a very brave retreat,
Bravest of the brave, Sir Robin. |
you'll find the first part in previous posts of mine 
Last edited by MarkG on 20-08-2002 at 12:26
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fittstim
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Stockholm, Sweden
Jul 2001
time: 06:21
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quote:
Originally posted by vondrack
fittstim,
the Japanese used kamikaze pilots en mass throughout the late WW2, when desperately trying to stop the US from reaching the Japanese homeland. It was not just a few of them, they were ending their lives in hundreds. Also, the Japanese cities did not appear to rise up and rebel because of that, if you mention it. Actually, becoming a kamikaze was highly esteemed in the Japanese society. It had to do much with the cultural background of the nation.
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Were you drunk when you wrote that or are you really that confused about world history?
The Japanese did not use kamikaze plane "en masse". This is a military fact. Their claim to fame is the "TERROR" that they caused in the soldiers opposing them. Much like suicide bombers in Israel. They were, however, not as popular or common as their claim to fame would have one believe.
Saying that there were "hundreds" of them is a joke compared to the TENS OF MILLIONS of soldiers fighting in the war.
Becoming a kamikaze pilot was definitely NOT an esteemed act within the society. When the generals realized that many of the supposed "kamikaze" pilots weren't actually killing themselves but bailing out (usually too early so that the plane crashed into the ocean), they enacted a policy of welding the pilot within the canopy so that escape was not possible. The samurai/bushi mentality encouraged bravery and honor in battle. Not exactly what people think of when they hear about kamikaze (or suicide bombers).
The sad fact was that the Japanese pilots were getting shot down/killed at an unsustainable rate. The kamikaze idea was sheer desperation because they were out of skilled pilots.
Side note: There were several "kamikaze" pilots who actually survived? Strange but true fact...
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19-08-2002 13:29
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