03-12-2000 01:28									#1
	Does the barbarian leader ever win? Increase Your PM Length

Has anyone here ever lost a battle with a barbarian leader? I'd bet you could only do that if you were attacking him on a mountain with a spearman who had just a sliver of red showing.

In my last few games I've made sizeable amounts by responding to barbarian incursions with a fairly hefty "bait," letting the barbs attack that until the leader is out in the open, then jumping on him with whatever's closest.

I'm wondering if this might not be a crutch for the weaker player. (If you remember that far back( ))

Jim W

	03-12-2000 03:11									#2
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Yes, the barb leader can and will kill units. This is because the battle calculations in Civ2 cause the attacker to lose hitpoints in a tie, so if the attacker rolls a zero it will get hurt. There is a 1 in 8 chance of a 1 attack unit rolling a zero. A 1 attack unit attacking at 2/3 or 1/3 strength has an even higher chance of rolling a zero.

According to the currently accepted theories of the civ 2 battle formula, the terrain of the barb leader shouldn't matter in this. But it seems to, and no one knows why.

A good assumption is that barb leaders, diplomats, and spies have a defensive factor of 1/8.

This is most definitely not a crutch for weak players. All the best players use the strategy a lot. Some of them have figured out how to create a barbarian breeder zone by leaving a big patch of wilderness in the middle of their cities, which gives them a lot of money and cheap units.

	03-12-2000 04:29									#3
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In a thread by Smash some time ago I did some tests on the defensive strength of the Barb Leader and came up with a factor of 0.17 somewhat higher than the 0.125 (1/8) suggested by RB.

This defensive capability of the Barb Leader can be demonstrated when he is stacked with a very injured unit say an Archer (blackened shield). When you attack the stack, it is the Barb Leader who defends - something to remember for that capture bonus!

The defensive factor of the Barb Leader is easily noted qualitatively when he is captured. Your attacking unit often suffers some hit points however small and the terrain is relevant.

	03-12-2000 04:53									#4
	Got spare money?

On a sort of related issue. T'other day, I chased barb units into a barb city. Didn't have writing, so I didn't have diplos. Attacked the city. There were two barb leaders inside. They died separately. What riches.

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[This message has been edited by finbar (edited December 02, 2000).]

	03-12-2000 12:35									#5
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I think I have lost a unit to a barb leader once. He was on a mountain, and I was almost dead

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	03-12-2000 13:48									#6
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Just last night in an MP game... I lost a warrior to a barb king sitting on a hill when I attacked at 2/3 stregth. Major bummer

	03-12-2000 18:38									#7
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It hapened to me too. A perfectly healty warrior chased a barb down a river. At 1/3 movement points left, he attacked the leader, also on a river, and lost!

On the upside, in the same game, an AI warrior attacked a caravan on open ground and lost.

	04-12-2000 02:14									#8
	Increase the size of your Attachments

the only time my units have EVER lost to a barb king is if they were injured, or as others are stating , using 1/3 - 2/3 of their movement points. I have lost horses, phalanxes and warriors to the vile little redheads. I wonder if the barb king ever takes on the "Super Barbarian" complex that has been discussed in one of the archived threads of the past?

	04-12-2000 02:26									#9
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What I can say that once,
I'm not quite sure if in civ1 or 2,
barbarian leader poisoned my water supply,
sabotaged production oslt.
Does it happen often?
After all, it is diplomatic unit;
when you bribe it...
And yes, I have lost some battles with it.

	14-12-2000 03:26									#13
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Bah, I just lost a vet phalanx to a Barb Leader. The phalanx wasn't much less than half health, thought the barb was on a hill. He was leader of the Alan's I later discovered, which I can well believe as he is my flatm8.