21-08-2002 14:59									#31
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Back to the FP. It matters not much, where it will be built. We aren't there yet. But we seem to have a consensus, that it shall be built ASAP, as it doubles our economy instantly.

There are 2 ways to build it. The painful one is to build it the hard way, in a city that yields 1 or 2 shields and thus, needs 100 or 200 turns. Or we can build it instantly with a leader. And leaders can be only generated with wars.

We are not militaristic and have a handicap what concerns promotions. We need twice as much victories to get an unit promoted to elites. So we either can wage a very long war with just a few units, or invest some shields and gold in a bigger army, and generate a leader in one shorter war. True, leader generation is a bit about luck. No risk, no fun. And a war will gain us land and a better choice, where to locate the FP. I remind you, aggressive wars shall be finished in the medieval age. After the AIs have Nationalism and can draft and have big cities, they'll be very very expensive. And it will be too late for an FP.

Before you come with the argument, that building the FP the "hard way" costs only 200 shields and a good military 400 plus a decent amount of gold: Think of the time factor. 200 turns of doubled production and commerce yields much more. Investing in a leader for the FP always pays. No doubt on that.

	21-08-2002 15:09									#32
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Just to add to Sir Ralph's post, it's 200 shields in one city , as opposed to 400 nationwide

	21-08-2002 17:12									#33
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quote: Originally posted by caesarqbear I don't agree that the FP is an immediate priority.

quote: Originally posted by Reddawg it's defn. too early to decide where to place the FP

quote: Originally posted by civman2000 I agree that it is too early

quote: Originally posted by GodKing I would hesitate at this time to finalize the location of a fp

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I'd start to build a FP in Boston as soon as a Temple is built there

quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Back to the FP. It matters not much, where it will be built. We aren't there yet. But we seem to have a consensus, that it shall be built ASAP, as it doubles our economy instantly.

OK, that was low and petty . But I think it's in order to remind you there are quite a few people desiring to precisely know where to build the FP before building it.
A FP doubles our economy under communism : more precisely, it doubles the # of optimal cities regarding production (SirRalph : I know you know this, but everyone didn't follow the usefulness of an FP so closely).
But in other regimes, the increase due to FP varies, depending where it's placed. That's why some of us think we should wait.

I may be wrong, but I think you raised the FP issue to show the usefulness of an agressive war. Let me doubt it. I won't consider the fact that getting a leader is less than sure. Rather, let's say we get one leader from your war with Greece (hypothesis). I'm almost sure people will want to use it on something else than the FP :
- because some people will feel it's too early for an FP, and we don't know where to build it yet
- because some people will want to build an army, to make us able to build Heroic Epic and Military Academy.
- because some people will want to rush a wonder, which requires many more shields to be built (like Leonardo's)

Even if I personnaly think that the only buildings needing rushing are FP (in some cases) and palaces (always), I'm pretty sure I range in a minority here. It's very likely our leader will be used in something else.

Plus, our corruption rate is low enough right now, to make a FP affordable in a developed far away city : Del Monte has about 50% corruption, and would build FP in 25 turns if it produces 8 shields total (pretty possible when you see the surroundings). 25 are many turns, but are affordable : IIRC, building our barracks in Tassagrad took approx. as much time.
If we don't want to build FP at the other end of the continent, normally building it could be a viable option, less costly than a war. Especially a war against Hoplite users.

	21-08-2002 17:24									#34
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I see the complete uselessness to continue the discussion in this thread. I will get out of it. I have better things to do in my spare time. Goodbye.

	21-08-2002 17:35									#35
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Spiffor,

I would like to point out, once again, that this would have been better served as a seperate, non political, thread. I would encourage you to either: form such a group for these type of matters, or use an existing group, the thinkers guild comes to mind, to discuss such things. Creating this under a DIA name can only lead to us vs them mentality. All to further a political aim. Please create these much needed discussions without political ties in the future. We all know the DIA is the 'builder' party, we need a 'builder' discussion group like the War Academy or Machiavelli Inst.

	21-08-2002 19:02									#36
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quote: I disagree with one thing: Uber Isle is no reason to keep the palace in Apolytonia. Even if it's big it most likely stretches away from Apolytonia. What more, the island is several tiles away from Apolytonia. I haven't bothered checking for the exact figure but I believe that the distance between Apolytonia and the nearest shore of Uber Island that we know of is something in the vicinity of 6, 7, maybe 8 tiles away. We should move our capital to an area that is covered with cities rather than to a shore that has some cities on one side and a distant island on the other.

Shiber you are right. This brings up the question of wether we want to build are FP near our capital and then move the capital or not.

	21-08-2002 19:19									#37
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Why should we build an FP near our capital and move our palace to another spot if we can just build the FP in that other spot?

	21-08-2002 19:26									#38
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To improve culture flipping odds.

	21-08-2002 19:51									#39
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I thought a city with an FP serves as a 2nd capital and has identical effects to a regular capital.

	21-08-2002 19:53									#40
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It very well may. I do not understand much of the culture side of the game.

	21-08-2002 20:05									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber I thought a city with an FP serves as a 2nd capital and has identical effects to a regular capital.

No. Not what concerns flipping.

	21-08-2002 20:09									#42
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Hey, it looks like I was right!

I had thought I read on that somewhere.

	21-08-2002 23:28									#43
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Well, as a PROUD MEMBER of the DIA, I agree that a major building boom needs to happen soon.

On the major points brought up:

After our wars with France and America, we will almost have total control of the Grand Basin [if anyone does not know what this is, an explanation is found under the 'weltpolitik' thread, to which UnOrthOdOx has provided a link in his very good topped thread]: which gives us a great and secure homeland. Major jungle clearing and roadwork is the first priority, with massive irrigation and mining soon after. Our industrial potential is concentrated at the edges of our empire, probably not the best thing, but a reality that needs to shape the future.

I have to say that I think a jump to the republic would be best after the war with America: if only to give us a huge boost in porfits: being relegious gives us great government switching capabilities, and we shoul milk them. We need cash and lots of it, and republic is the best.

Further temples, marketplaces, and I shall say harbors, shoul be the priority in our core cities. We should finally explore uber's island to discover what it may be like- see if an expedition is needed to explore it.

As for foreign policy: We should cultivate friendly relations with the Persians. After we secure the incense of chicago and French wine we will have 3 luxuries, and we could trade for the fourth, Persian spices. I see Greece as a long term opponent, but the Germans are a much better target- a violent war against them wil not only gain us new lands and an opening into the Major Plains, but it would also: a. Secure our industrial centers in the German border regions and b. we could get significant techs from the peace settlement.

After such gains, a great place for an fp would be the site of Boston- making the great site of washington a supercity siter, as well as making the core cities of germany also hignly productive.

	31-08-2002 00:15									#44
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And as a proud bumper of the DIA, I almost entirely agree with almost entirely everything GePap said.

Indeed, we do need a major building boom, and i agree on how gepap said to go about it, excepting that we should perhaps hold out for democracy, and that exploration of Uber Isle should be a higher priority than what he made it seem. After all, why take land in really expensive wars with several nations... but i digress. Point is, we should expediate any expeditions to Uber Isle.