20-08-2002 09:40									#1
	DIA : the medieval era Inflate your Upload Space

Hello fellow DIA members !
Here is a thread about the way you picture the medieval era. The intend of the thread is to develop a platform, and to elaborate a long-range policy (unlike the academies that deal with precise and immediate matters).

Everyone is welcome in the debate. Also, since it's a common work of the DIA, ALL members of the party are more than welcome to say their views. The DIA is a Democratic party, so don't be shy, and express your views even if you think they're worthless : the opinion of a fellow party member is never worthless.

Questions this thread will handle :
- What is likely to happen during the medieval era ?
- What will our hardships be, and how will we resolve them ?
- What overall direction should we give to our policy for the era ? (or for a good part of the era ?)
This isn't an exhaustive list of questions, simply the 3 that go through my mind now.
Let's debate !

	20-08-2002 10:27									#2
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My opinions about this matter (I already wrote them elsewhere).

Disclaimer : what is written in this post is only my personal stance, not necessarily the stance of the DIA

I think "our" medieval era will start after the 2nd American campaign, when all our ancient warfare would have been carried out, and when we won't have to conquer our neighbours immediately.
We'll find ourselves with a big territory, but an underpopulated one, with an insufficient infrastructure to match our neighbours. Indeed, we'll suffer from corruption pretty badly, even under Republic, because of the size of the empire.
Worse, because of the jungle, only 3 cities will be good production centres : Apolyton, Termina and Tassagrad. Others will produce slowly, and will have worse difficulties to build units and buildings.

To make the picture worse, we're technologically backwards, and we won't always be able to catch up with money : currently nobody wants to sell us monotheism, even if we give all our treasury, plus all our 19 Lytons per turn. Techs aren't cheap anymore.
Our research potential, for now, is catastrophic : had we 100% tech rate, whole Apolytonia make hardly more bulbs than Berlin alone. We can't allow this to continue, if we don't want to be backwards by several techs (we don't know if someone already know theology or not).

Compared to Greeks and Germans, our production potential will be laughable. Thus, we have no way to be ready for a war against them, and should this war be declared, we are sure not to outproduce them during he war. We will eevntually be swarmed under their troops until we sign a humiliating peace agreement (and lose several cities).

To counteract foreign threats (German mostly), we must build an infrastructure allowing more cities to be productive, and allowing enough research to be up-to-date. This is not a politicial choice. This is as necessary as our first war against America.
And in the jungly country of Apolytonia, "building" is a massive undertaking : it means clearing the biggest jungle of the knon world. It means building cathedrals in every medium/big city, to make more people work. It means building marketplaces and libraries massively, to be on par with the AI science-wise and culture-wise.

The aim of such a building policy is to be ready for late medieval and early industrial : late medieval will allow us to build cavalries, which could take care of foreign threats. If we're ready for early industrial, we could use all our workers to work on railroads immediately : this will give us a huge advantage on the AI (which is pretty slow with railroads). Also, being ready for earl insudtrial will let us build factories and hospitals as soon as they're available.


Foreign relations :
As I said, we have no way to struggle efficiently against our most powerful neighbours for now. Because of that, we must avoid war at all costs until we're ready.
To avoid the AI to declare war, 2 things are needed : an efficient defense (we must have many pikemen defending our cities and our workers), and a great tolerance towards AI demands.
Yes, it means giving in. I know I'm isolated on this one, but I'm experienced with appeasement policies in Civ3, and they work very well, if conquering you won't be a piece of cake (if you're waaaay to easy to conquer, the AI will attack anyways). Most of the time, demands aren't expansive, and giving in is one of the best defense you could ask.

To quote Cleopatra : "Thanks for your gift. Don't make us ask next time" : we can prevent AI demands by giving them gifts. Lytons per turn work very well to improve relationship with an AI. I suggest we pay what is needed to have good relationship with other civs, at least until we're ready production- and tech-wise.


Government :
Of course, I favor getting to Republic as soon as the 2nd American campaign is over (and we have 3 luxuries, with a potential 4th buyable from Persia). Republic will allow us to make more money, from commerce bonus + corruption reduction (monarchists tend to forget corruption is much worse in monarchy than in Republic).
With this extra money, gifts to the AI and rush-building will be much easier. It will allow us to have science on our own as well.
The problem with Republic is unit upkeep costs. I think we should disband one archer each time a new pikeman comes out. Later (at least when we have musketmen), we should disband our swordsmen as well, not to let our military expenses slip too much. But we must allow our military budget to increase, since our overall budget will increase.


Science :
I absolutely support Project Eiri (by Apocalypse) : since we won't be able to fight efficiently with knights, we should avoid war at all costs rather than building knights. Rushing for eductaion will allow us to build universities, which will be badly needed to counterbalance AI dominance in tech and culture.
After this, Democracy is the obvious choice, being an excellent government commerce- and corruption-wise. Also, banking is in the way to Democracy, and banks will let us have more money, hence more rushing ability.
So rushing to Democracy is what we must strive for in tech domain.


City building :
after having settled Uber Isle, our cities should simply build everything available, except perhaps courthouses. Most important buildings are : a harbour somewhere (several aren't that useful), cathedrals, libraries and marketplaces. But granaries in our worker producing cities will be more than welcome as well.


Overview
In ancient times, we had to fight for our survival. In middle ages, we'll have to build for our survival. Our land will be large after the 2nd American campaign, yet only our 3 core cities are really productive. We can boast with our territory, but we're basically plaing a 3-city-challenge for now.
Like we've done everything for the sake of conquering during the ancient times, we must now do everything for the sake of building in middle ages, and follow a hard line of builder policies.

Otherwise, our country will be as soft as butter, in long term. I want it as hard as a rock.

	20-08-2002 16:49									#3
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I think you're underestimating Banana HQ. It too is a fine city and deserves to be one of the "core cities"

	20-08-2002 17:17									#4
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After the 2nd american war, we need to slow down military and focus on wrokers. Every city should have at least one mined and roaded grassland tile. Every tile being worked should have a road, ultimately. This infrastructure will be the key to success.

	20-08-2002 17:37									#5
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I didn't intend to post in this thread, as I am not a member of this party, but I must agree with civman2000. Workers are our strength, as we are industrious. And I would not say 1 tile per city is enough. Every tile worked on shall be fully improved, both roaded and mined/irrigated, as far as irrigation makes sense. This will result in making much more money and production than now.

	20-08-2002 17:47									#6
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Well, yes, that is the ultimate goal. BUt first we should focus on one per city, and then go towards more and more.

In my games, I usually have a large worker force throughout the entire game to ensure that every single tile being worked is giving the most resources it can. However, it is too late for that, so we have to make sure every city has at least one at maximum, and all roaded.

	20-08-2002 19:40									#7
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I think we need to continue our conquest of other nations for a good part of the medieval era. I don't know if we have really set our eyes on one victory type but either way we will need a lot of land and cities to reach our goal.

EXPLORATION IS A MAJOR PRIORITY! We must get Uber Isle and continue to explore the world after that.

	20-08-2002 19:43									#8
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By the way Sir Ralph not that it is important but your new location name:
Schluckspecht und Schweinshaxenvertilger displays wierd.

	20-08-2002 19:54									#9
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Sheik: I think you are perfectly right what concerns further conquests. Mainly for the luxuries. That will help the builders among us as well.

What's wrong with my location? It means "Excessive beer drinker and eater of grilled knuckles of pork" and is a decent hint, that I must be in Bavaria.

	20-08-2002 20:03									#10
	Inflate your Upload Space

Maybe it is just my screen settings your name is all off center for some reason.

I just tried refreshing and messing with my settings a bit and it seems fixed.

	20-08-2002 20:05									#11
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I haven't joined the party but I thought I could use the statistics to back up (or refute) some of what has been said.

1.OPD is right in that you may be underestimating Banana HQ; it is currently the fastest growing city (100% growth over last millenium).
2.Science is becoming a problem; the literacy rate of Apolytonia has fallen from 1st for the last two millenium to SIXTH.
3.Lack of infrastructure/public works is the cause of many of Apolyonia's problems: the atrocious disease rate (worst in the world), the falling life expectancy, and the fact that manufactured goods is falling behind other nations (although productivity has shown consistent rises).

	20-08-2002 20:16									#12
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Sheik :
Not to argue, but rather to understand your position : how do you think further conquests (except finishing off France) would be sustainable for our underdeveloped infrastructure ?
I'm sure you have an answer, please share it, thx

	20-08-2002 20:35									#13
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I have read all of the responses under both treads from the War Academy and DIA and having thought about our current position, I would have to put my weight behind what has been proposed and debated here. To pursue an offensive Medieval area with a large troop build up would most likely be folly.

I am not against any military buildup, but only against a large buildup.

At this time we need to look at our weakest area and rebuild that area into a profitable and productive venture. We need defenders adequate to the task of avoiding and detering war with the other races while we seek to construct infastructure to obtain the most from our nation. We suffer the effects of enveloping jungle, the inability to travel quickly and safely (roads) and allow the free flow of commerce. All of which we are capable of correcting.

Building an expensive (shields) attack force and then proceeding with the expensive (lytons) upgrading at a later date would be a sound plan if it were not for the fact that this would tie up our resources and allow our adversaries to pull away from us. This would leave our civilization in the dust economically, scientifically and culturaly.

You have to remember that our critical angle comes from our inability to research our technologies independantly, resulting in our dependance on trade with other nations for these scientific items. This in turn leads us to economic, scientific and culture dependance on the amount of money we generate.

To waste our precious resources on trhe development of offensive units when much needs to be done within the borders of our own provinces would be folly.

This in the long term spells success.

	20-08-2002 20:44									#14
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I have a question to our honorable DIA members: When, where and how would you prefer to build our Forbidden Palace? That we need one, and pronto, should be out of question, I'm talking with expert industrialists. So try to answer in a constructive way.

	20-08-2002 21:24									#15
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quote: Sheik : Not to argue, but rather to understand your position : how do you think further conquests (except finishing off France) would be sustainable for our underdeveloped infrastructure ? I'm sure you have an answer, please share it, thx

This is a good question and I haven't given it a lot of thought to it but I believe that we can build offensive units and defensive units (1-2 defensive units per city is plenty) for awhile making sure that we only stop building military when it is completely necessary. As a Despotism we may even want to consider getting our cities to a point where they grow every other turn and then pop rushing units. Once we have a lot of land and a strong military we can build all we want and the other civs hopefully wont even consider attacking us. At around this point we need to start seriously thinking about how we want to win. If we decide we want to win by conquest then exploration becomes even a greater priority then it already is. We should choose one of your cities to build the Art of War too. Then when we go to war we don't need to eliminate them but instead we could pillage their roads and take most of the cities. Once the war is over and if our target is still alive we can hopefully demand cash from them every so often. I believe that conquest is easier the earlier you do it (I don't know if this is true fro Diety because I haven't played many Diety games) because the longer you wait the more you have to conquer and the more resources and time you need to put into it. If we stop war completely in the medieval era then we may be touble later on. The more we build the more the AI builds.

	20-08-2002 21:28									#16
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I am not a DIA member but I would like to answer your concern, Sir Ralph.

This is a valid point. At some time in the near future we are going to need to look heavily into the construction and placing of a Forbidden Palace (FP). Having a Great Leader (GL) on hand to drive our hearty workers to new heights in its construction would be a marvelous benefit.

However,

We need to be mindful of the COST of obtaining that GL and his/her impact on building the FP. If we follow a plan that sees our nation invest HEAVILY into the training and deployment of offensive units to attack another nation, we will, in effect, cripple our economy. The risk involved in entering into war with another nation in order to develope and produce a GL is inmeasurably costly when scaled against our need to remain competitive economically.

Again, I am not saying that we need to, or should, cuts costs to the military in a heavy handed way. We need to look strategically at our weakest area and fix that before it becomes our Achilles Heal; and something from which we can not recover.

A question for you, and please forgive me if this is covered elsewhere, but what are your military plans:

1) Conquer another nation, or
2) Generate a GL

and at what point would you suggest that a military plan to generate a GL or conquer another nation be discarded at too expensive?

	20-08-2002 22:25									#17
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Treestump,

1st: I am not a DIA member too. Fortunately.

2nd: Where is your constructive answer to my question? If you step in this discussion and don't agree with me, it's fine, but where is your solution of the FP problem?

3rd: I have stated my military plans to death and won't repeat them in this thread. Please read them here. Short answer: Yes to both. Conquer a location for an FP and generate 1-2 leaders.

4th: There is nothing, I repeat: nothing what pushes an economy so good like a well placed and timed FP. We can try to build up Spiffors "Butter" cities with an immense effort and will fail, because they are at least half corrupt. Or we could place a good FP and make them instantly productive. A "Builder" should know this.

Again: Constructive replies please. I repeat the question: When, where and how would you prefer to build our Forbidden Palace?

	20-08-2002 22:53									#18
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OK. I am not necessarily for or against either proposal or philosophy. I do agree with your points Sir Ralph and you are beginning to sway me to your side but let us break this down into it's elements.

1) We need to identify our weak area and fix it. IMHO this means we need to seriously consider our infrastructure and the productivity of our cities. This means we need a FP to reduce corruption but we also need to focus on road, mines, city improvements and the jungle encroachment. At what point (100,000 lytons, 1000 lytons) should we decide which is the best way?

2) We need to maintain and expand our military in order to, at the very least, deter the other nations from attacking us. We need to give them a moments pause. This leads us to military procurement and IMHO we need to solidify our city defenses but I agree that we need to think offensively as well - no leadership has ever been established without the test of combat.

We need to achieve a balance with these two high level strategic objectives while maximizing our growth against the other nations.

I'm probably taking a good middle ground here and, as you said, I am not offering much in the way of a solution myself.

What I would propose is that we reach a middle ground.

Building 20 War Chariots and upgrading them to knights at the cost of 100 lytons a piece gives us a price tag of 400 shields and $2000 lytons; assuming 50 lytons a turn we are looking at a long production cycle to get these units up to operational levels. Is it possible for us to work with 8-10 Chariots (cost of 160-200 shields and $800-$1000 lytons)? It cuts our costs in half (yes it cuts our offensive capabilities in half) but IMHO we can not afford to upgrade in order to achieve our objectives...

Ahh.. that's the rub is it not? In order to use the Chariots effectively, do they need to be upgraded to knights. That is the option that sways it for me - building the units knowing that we need to spend $2000 lytons in order to make them effective while that money needs to be spent elsewhere.

Again I have skirted offering a solution other than suggesting that we meet half-way.

	20-08-2002 23:22									#19
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Treestump,

I don't think this discussion belongs here. Please continue it in the War Academy thread.

Short answers (I'm in a hurry):

- I'm not talking about a short-term strategy, but about the next 50-100 turns. We need to push up our economy with workers, but concentrate on our productive cities. Cleaning jungle around Seeberg gives nothing for now. Improving our heartland brings.

- Build up the economy in our productive cities (marketplaces). At this point, the cities should have grown and been improved to a net of, say, 5-7 shields, that's reasonable. That yields a Chariot every 3-4 turns. Take the 4 most productive cities, out Chariot army will be ready in about 15-20 turns.

- One by one upgrade the Chariots in a way we can afford. Continue to build up marketplaces and cathedrals, to support more citizens. That brings more commerce.

- I we have enough veteran Knights, consider to attack a worthy target. Greece is, they have a luxury for us.

I'm going out and won't be back for a while. Hope to continue this discussion in a place that fits it better.

	21-08-2002 00:18									#20
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Where, when, and how to place the FP is a hard question. In the game I am playing right now I waited until I was oversees and then built it. After building it I had 100 more gold per turn. Sir Ralph you are right:

quote: There is nothing, I repeat: nothing what pushes an economy so good like a well placed and timed FP.

The probelm is we may not want to wait until we reach Uber Isle because we have no idea how big Uber Isle is. Is the placement of the FP the city planners job? I know I haven't given a very constructive answer to this question because I am still thinking about it.

	21-08-2002 00:52									#21
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SirRalph :
About the FP matter : I think we should wait for now. To begin, we ust precisely know what expansion we want : do we want all Abananaba ? All Abananaba major ? The land we control + France, America and Greece ? The land we control + France, America and Germany ? Do we want to let the French alive ? etc. Those are important questions, and their answers will be vital to build a good FP.

For example, imagine an extremist builder (I don't range within them, I think an extreme building period is necessary in the medieval era) who says : "our land + America and Uber Isle is enough. No need to finish off France". This person is likely to build FP in Del Monte.
Now, imagine an extremist warmonger, who believes in a complete Manifest Destiny : he'd build FP in Rome or something.

Now, imagine Uber Isle is a big unsettled landmass : a FP there would be the obvious choice.

My answer was unconstructive, simply because I don't know the answer that would be good for all Apolytonians. IMO, the only necessary expansion after the 2nd French campaign would be an utter conquest of Germany, so I'd start to build the FP in Boston as soon as a temple is built there. But this is my opinion (again, what I say doesn't reflect the opinion of the DIA), and it's as valid as someone else's.

I'm tired, and I don't know how we could work well-asked polls, which tell what territory Apolytonians want, and when. If you have any ideas, please share them

Last edited by Spiffor on 21-08-2002 at 01:07

	21-08-2002 01:01									#22
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I don't agree that the FP is an immediate priority. We will obviously only have one chance to place it right, and I believe that our borders are too uncertain to determine where the FP should go. I believe it is Apolytonian destiny to reach the western shore, and that may be far away in time. Moving our capital may be a solution for now.

I agree that we will have to face some concessions and even capitualtions in our forgien policies. Our warriors are strong, but we cannot defend against all our neighboring cultures. We must choose allies, and the sooner the better. With good strong allies (not too strong though) we can weather our opposition's demands and strike another day.

We compete not only against neighbors on this crowded continent, but also against hidden powers in distant lands, who may grow unhindered by warfare. We must assume they have riches we do not. We cannot wait for exploration to tell us this.

Our task is great and we must use time as our weapon and not be caught in its trap.

	21-08-2002 01:11									#23
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it's defn. too early to decide where to place the FP; our borders are going to expand in far too unpredictable ways. we have to wait on that.

but something treestump said has made me decided to analyize the production and commerce of our cities; the Stats will be updated soon.

	21-08-2002 02:05									#24
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I agree that it is too early. If Uber Isle is very large, we'll put it there. ALthough in may be enticing to make the FP asap, it might be wiser to wait to get in Abananaba Minor.

WE may even get a GL in the upcoming war against france, thoughit is doubtful.

However, this early, as others have said, we cannot decide where to build the FP

Last edited by civman2000 on 21-08-2002 at 03:11

	21-08-2002 02:48									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor SirRalph : About the FP matter : I think we should wait for now. To begin, we ust precisely know what expansion we want : do we want all Abananaba ? All Abananaba major ? The land we control + France, America and Greece ? The land we control + France, America and Germany ? Do we want to let the French alive ? etc. Those are important questions, and their answers will be vital to build a good FP.

Ah, may be you should think a bit about this then before you return with such proposals. It's about time. A well placed FP pushes our economy much more than all your cathedrals, libraries and universities together. Even more: It allows to build these improvements even in distant cities.

And stop with these weird names. What the heck as an Abanana?

	21-08-2002 03:05									#26
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I would hesitate at this time to finalize the location of a fp. Currently I lean toward Del Montie, but that will be a while down the line, post conquest of the americans.

If necessary, a palace jump to uber isle might be a better solution to that problem. Again, too early to say.

The first gl we get should go toward an army. The second adn so forth should be held for wonders such as leo's or michaels that others can take from us.

Oh ya, sorry DIA people, as an independant, for voicing my opinion here.

	21-08-2002 04:15									#27
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GodKing : no problem, this place became a huge general policy forum for everyone
(But DIA members are welcome to express their views here. Remember, I don't talk on behalf on the DIA, but I talk for myself here)

SirRalph :
Abananaba is the name of our continent. IIRC, GoodFella came up with it, and nobody voiced strong opposition.
What I say about FP is that building it would be nice, as soon as we know what our definitive borders hould look like. If not, we might place it in a suboptimal location, at the long run.
(btw, my personal answer was hidden : if it was just me, I'd start to build a FP in Boston as soon as a Temple is built there : indeed, I think conquering Germany will be the only necessary expansion after our pending campaigns)

Last edited by Spiffor on 21-08-2002 at 04:45

	21-08-2002 05:36									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Science : I absolutely support Project Eiri (by Apocalypse) : since we won't be able to fight efficiently with knights, we should avoid war at all costs rather than building knights. Rushing for eductaion will allow us to build universities, which will be badly needed to counterbalance AI dominance in tech and culture. After this, Democracy is the obvious choice, being an excellent government commerce- and corruption-wise. Also, banking is in the way to Democracy, and banks will let us have more money, hence more rushing ability. So rushing to Democracy is what we must strive for in tech domain.

Protocol Eiri. It isn't a full project because it is just something to get combine the groups who want either a Democracy or Astronomy rush against those who want to continue Project Lain or the Gunpowder Rush Project.

Sorry, I'm not a DIA, but I just want to clarify something.

I thank you for bring the tech issue up in your thread.

	21-08-2002 08:55									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor SirRalph : Abananaba is the name of our continent. IIRC, GoodFella came up with it, and nobody voiced strong opposition. What I say about FP is that building it would be nice, as soon as we know what our definitive borders hould look like. If not, we might place it in a suboptimal location, at the long run. (btw, my personal answer was hidden : if it was just me, I'd start to build a FP in Boston as soon as a Temple is built there : indeed, I think conquering Germany will be the only necessary expansion after our pending campaigns)

I agree, that Germany has to be reduced, before they get their UU. But apart from this, what has Germany to give? They are piss poor. When I choose a target, I know exactly what I want. Greece has a luxury we don't have and gives an important sea port. And it would give a longish empire shape for a good placed FP. If Uber island is big, which we'll have to explore soon, Apolyton could remain the capital, even though its ill located at the tip of a peninsula.

	21-08-2002 13:45									#30
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I disagree with one thing: Uber Isle is no reason to keep the palace in Apolytonia.
Even if it's big it most likely stretches away from Apolytonia. What more, the island is several tiles away from Apolytonia. I haven't bothered checking for the exact figure but I believe that the distance between Apolytonia and the nearest shore of Uber Island that we know of is something in the vicinity of 6, 7, maybe 8 tiles away. We should move our capital to an area that is covered with cities rather than to a shore that has some cities on one side and a distant island on the other.