20-08-2002 16:44									#1
	Tip to trade tech with AI Got spare money?

I do not know if it was already discussed, but I found a trick to trade tech with the AI.
I often had the following problem: I want to buy the AI a tech, but it do not want to trade it; when I ask it what I should give it for the tech, it answers that such a trade is not possible.
In fact the trade could be possible, but the cheat AI knows how many gpt you earn. It finds it is not enough and considers you can not buy the tech for what it wants. You can here notice that the AI will never propose you a trade that exceeds your income.
The solution is the following: set your science and luxury rates to 0%, in order to maximise your income. Contact the AI again and ask it for trading the tech; you must of course negotiate to minimize the amount of gold you will give it! Once you got the tech, try to trade it to other civs in order to be paid back; or, if you do not care about your reputation, declare war! Then you can increase your science and luxury rates at their initial level.

It does not work every time, but it was often successful for me.

	20-08-2002 17:10									#2
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Interesting theory

At what difficultly level did you try this?

	20-08-2002 19:23									#3
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Just keep changing your offer and make it better until your advisor says they will accept this. I think Firaxis should change this.


Me:
Want: Radio
Give: 200 Gold

Them:
Want: 500 Gold, 50 gold/turn, World Map, Flight
Give: World Map

Me:
Want Radio
Give: 500 Gold, 100 gold/turn, World Map, Flight, Communism

Them:
Want: 500 Gold, 100 gold/turn, World Map, Flight, Communism
Give: World Map

Me:
Demand: Radio

Them:
sure!

Me:

2 turns later

Them: Prepare for WAR!

	20-08-2002 19:33									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Haupt. Dietrich Interesting theory At what difficultly level did you try this?

Yeah, it works fine in all levels. I have been doing that since forever.

	20-08-2002 20:05									#5
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I've been doing this since my very first game Works everytime on all difficulties.

	20-08-2002 23:46									#6
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You learn something new everyday

I'll have to give this tactic a try. Thanks guys!

	23-08-2002 00:23									#7
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I was confronted with this problem all the time the bad AI didn't want to give me anything but now I have the power to trick them thanks to Nym. I will announce you for the creative-medal of the month.

	23-08-2002 01:54									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Galvatron I was confronted with this problem all the time the bad AI didn't want to give me anything but now I have the power to trick them thanks to Nym. I will announce you for the creative-medal of the month.

Thanks.

	23-08-2002 03:11									#9
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I don't think the AI considers your or their treasury when considering gpt deals.

For example, they will be very happy to pay 20 gold, but will refuse to pay 1 gold/turn for the next 20 turns, no matter what you offer. Nor do they seem to consider that you or they could adjust spending to pay for a deal, as demonstrated here.

Yes, the way the AI handles gpt deals should definitely be fixed.

	23-08-2002 03:58									#10
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John, what you describe is most likely due to the fact that you broke a gpt deal in the past, therefore they don't trust you for the future.

I had a game in which a deal of luxuries for gold (straight payment on my part) was broken by trade route destruction by the gold provider. I got the blame and none of the AIs would trade gold to me (even so much as 1) for luxuries for the rest of the game. still paid gpt though.

	23-08-2002 14:16									#11
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Hmm, I always played that way.

Since you always know how big is AI treasury and how much he earns (he never agrees deals which exceeds his income), that same thing applies to you too.

	23-08-2002 22:08									#12
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Yup, if you declare war this way once, you`ll then probably never get tech for per-turn deal again in that game

So, I try to be honest in gpt deals. Instead, better keep your science at 0 all the time - it`s useless above Regent anyway

	23-08-2002 22:42									#13
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quote: Originally posted by JohnM2433 I don't think the AI considers your or their treasury when considering gpt deals.

Yes, they do. Most of the time, they don't trade with you because they don't have enough golds or GPT.

quote: For example, they will be very happy to pay 20 gold, but will refuse to pay 1 gold/turn for the next 20 turns, no matter what you offer.

There are many reasons why AI doesn't want to trade GPT (golds per turn) with you.

1. You reputation is bad.

2. It doesn't want a bad reputation. For example: If it agree 1 gold/turn for the next 20 turns, that means it couldn't go to war against you for the next 20 turns without taking a bad rep. If I am the AI, I wouldn't want to find myself in that situation either. Therefore, the AI has been responding brilliantly in this case.

	24-08-2002 05:36									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Moonsinger 2. It doesn't want a bad reputation. For example: If it agree 1 gold/turn for the next 20 turns, that means it couldn't go to war against you for the next 20 turns without taking a bad rep. If I am the AI, I wouldn't want to find myself in that situation either. Therefore, the AI has been responding brilliantly in this case.

A plausible explanation, but an incorrect one. A deal in which the AI pays x gold/turn will be acceptable, but a deal in which it pays x+1 gold/turn will be totally unacceptable. It will, however, be willing to give you x gold/turn and 20 gold up front for the same thing. The reason is that the AI won't pay gold/turn that exceeds its income in gold per turn. It's too stupid to realize that it could adjust the tax rates or take money out of its treasury, just as it doesn't realize that you could do the same. I'm sure many people here have witnessed the same sort of phenomenon -- back me up on this, guys.

	24-08-2002 12:12									#15
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quote: Originally posted by JohnM2433 A plausible explanation, but an incorrect one. A deal in which the AI pays x gold/turn will be acceptable, but a deal in which it pays x+1 gold/turn will be totally unacceptable. It will, however, be willing to give you x gold/turn and 20 gold up front for the same thing. The reason is that the AI won't pay gold/turn that exceeds its income in gold per turn. It's too stupid to realize that it could adjust the tax rates or take money out of its treasury, just as it doesn't realize that you could do the same. I'm sure many people here have witnessed the same sort of phenomenon -- back me up on this, guys.

I believe you are quite right, I think I have observed the same in my games. Restricting the AI to deals that do not cause negative cashflow seems to be rather simplistic. It is especially true when it will not accept such deals offered by the human - I mean, the AI should not bother whether you can or cannot fulfil your obligations with a non-negative cashflow. If you break the trade deal, you get a rep hit. If you honor it, well, fine... even if there is a routine checking whether a deal can (at least theoretically) be honored by the human, it should consider cash reserves, too...

	25-08-2002 11:03									#16
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Am I the only that thinks the AI offer flat out silly deals? You ask for tech A and they want massive cash and maps. When they want a tech from you or a map or anything they offer next to nothing. I know that relative strenght has a part, but the calculation for that are lame. They do it after you just kicked their butts. They have no leverage and no money, I want a nothing tech like printing press they ask for 500 and maps. It seems to get worse with each patch. Most civs have it but I skipped over it and they are flat broke (whats new), would it not be useful to get say 150 and maps or would you rather have nothing, hummm.

	26-08-2002 00:38									#17
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Well, Printing Press costs 576 commerce to reseach on a tiny map. It costs more on the larger ones, but it also costs less for each civ you know that has it; I don't know the exact formula. From what I've seen, I think a good rule is: if x civs have a tech, buying it for 1/(x+1) the "normal" cost is a fair deal. How much your maps are worth to other civs of course depends on whether they have already gotten them from someone else. If you traded your map to another civ in the past, they may have already traded it to everybody.

What size map are you playing on, and how many civs have the Printing Press?

	26-08-2002 03:43									#18
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Huge, 16 civs. I did not count them all as it is bit of a pain to do, but at least 5, with 6 not checked. I understand the concept that you mention, all I am saying is who is going to want it at those prices and the price is higher if you have more gold. It is not a function of what it cost be to learn as I will learn eventually and it is not critical or even important. My point is if I have something of little instrinsic value and will soon be worthless, why not get something? Especially if you are broke, does not 100 look good?

	26-08-2002 06:48									#19
	Re: Tip to trade tech with AI Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Nym The solution is the following: set your science and luxury rates to 0%, in order to maximise your income. Contact the AI again and ask it for trading the tech;

There is no need to exit the negotions and return. Double click on the Foreign Advisors head an you can get to the Domestic Advisor screen. Change the rates and hit the X. You will be returned to the negotiations.

	26-08-2002 18:21									#20
	Re: Re: Tip to trade tech with AI Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Ethelred There is no need to exit the negotions and return. Double click on the Foreign Advisors head an you can get to the Domestic Advisor screen. Change the rates and hit the X. You will be returned to the negotiations.

Thats useful, Ive never tried clicking on the advisor while in negotiations before

	26-08-2002 23:39									#21
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vmxa1, the tech is sold at a cost to the seller -- the cost of helping out a rival. The game is a competitive one, and it's smart not to do anything that increases the odds of someone else winning. You should seek better deals from players who already seem more likely than you to win -- after all, you'll be putting them that much farther ahead of you, thus disadvantaging yourself. Conversely, it's relatively safe to give great deals to civs that are far behind. It also makes sense to gang up on your biggest competitor. That's why there's a diplomatic penalty for being big -- it illustrates smart behavior on the AI's behalf, the same thing we should expect from humans in MP.

Incedentally, the more civs there are, the less true this is. For example, if you trade each of 15 other civs something worth 200 gold for 100 gold apiece, they will each be 100 gold farther ahead, but you will be ahead by 1500. You are now 1400 gold farther ahead relative to all the other civs in the game. Advantage: you!

It's hard to say what it makes sense for the AI to do based on what it would make sense for a human to do. In an MP game, if a buch of human players had a tech, they could form a monopoly, with a portion of the sales of that tech going to each player. Otherwise, one would expect free-market competition to bring the price down to 1 gold as the players try to outbid each other on the price, since there is no cost to selling the tech (it will help your rival, but the same thing is true if someone else sells it).

	27-08-2002 00:23									#22
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JohnM2433
I completely understand the concept and have know it since I was a small child playing cut throat pinochle with adults. That is why I refused to pay that much, even to a civ that could not hurt me.

I am not asking for it to really make sense or be smart, just stop being rediculous. If I just pasted you for the umpteenth time you should not be figuring you are stronger and trying to strong arm me. Ask or accept the same price you would give, when you in an inferior position. If you do not figure you want to trade it, just say so. It does not seem to matter if your are top dog and they are lowest. They still offer to buy from you at much lower prices than they will offer to sell to you. It is annoying, not critical. These things do not stop die hards, but will turn off casual players.

	27-08-2002 00:57									#23
	Re: Re: Tip to trade tech with AI Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Ethelred There is no need to exit the negotions and return. Double click on the Foreign Advisors head an you can get to the Domestic Advisor screen. Change the rates and hit the X. You will be returned to the negotiations.

Useful tip. I didn't know.
Thanks.

	27-08-2002 01:36									#24
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vmxa1: But, using my reasoning, the "top dog" would expect to get the worst deals, not the best. Appeasing you may not even be in other players' best interest, if it increases your likelihood of beating them. Having creamed them in the past may just make them even less favorable to you, for all I know.

However, I'm not sure that it works like this. In fact, I think the AIs may work to appease big military threats, offering them better deals. Someone wrote that "the AI respects you if you are worth respecting", or something like that. And I think that having ravaged their countries in the past probably does make them fear you.

If so, the AI may just be reluctant to do any trade which does not favor them, or at least is an even exchange. This can actually work to the human's advantage, because a lot of seemingly lousy deals can actually help you get ahead, as I described above. Especially once all the civs have contact with each other, the human will generally do most of the diplomacy in the game. Undervaluing trade and diplomacy is probably the AI's biggest failing. (For example, I may be able to get almost the whole world to ally against my enemy for a relatively low cost. It never seems to occur to my enemy to try the same thing.)

	27-08-2002 01:47									#25
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The AI does get other Civs to join in. I just wound up at war with ALL three of neighbors in the very early game. The first units to attack me were warriors. I am pretty sure that France was bribed by America to join in. Germany tried to extort me and then he became the third.

I haven't been under attack by all my neighbors in a long time. The previous times it cost me the game. I have marginalized all three of them this time around but it has taken a while. I am working on steam power as I am trying to finish of the French. The Americans and Germans are of minor consequence now but their remaining cities will be worthless to me so I am concentrating on the much closer French.

The only reason the Germans are still around is they respawned across an inland sea where I couldn't get at them. They and the others were busy attacking me so the continent didn't fill up till late in the Middle ages.

	27-08-2002 02:02									#26
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Either way it makes little sense to me. I have been top dog and got the same treatment with those I fought, I have gotten it with those I have never fought. I have gotten when I am not top dog, it is alway that way, they never give you a reasonable offer. All of the considerations you mention are fine, but they will not make those offers to another Civ under the same circumstances, I'll bet. If you offer the trades they do they are insulted, but apparently they are not concerned about offending me?
Like I said, I am not concerned about making the deal as mostly I am in a war. I love the scortched earth policy and make very few trades anyway. I only would like them to make the same offer to me they would to an AI civ with the same factors more or less. A small bump is fine. This can not be what is happening or there would be no trades for anyone.

	27-08-2002 02:02									#27
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Is it just me or the AI is better in tech research and tech trade since the last patch?
I am in 1285 AD and the French are about to complete their space ship. I will lost this game (not in modern era yet, due to a long war against Egypt), but I win by space race my previous game (already with 1.29) in XIV century (but with short advance). In other games (before 1.29) I usually won by space race in XIX century with large advance.

	27-08-2002 02:07									#28
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Ethelred, that is what is going down with me now and is the norm for my games. I do not make many MPP or ROP so soon all are your enemies. I sort of don't mind, but it would be nice if the AI make a lot less pacts. It got so bad a while back that I had pop up after pop up about embargoes and then declarations of war. I love the embargo as I had no trades anyway. All these wars are doing is make me lots of GL and elites.

	27-08-2002 02:22									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Nym Is it just me or the AI is better in tech research and tech trade since the last patch? I am in 1285 AD and the French are about to complete their space ship. I will lost this game (not in modern era yet, due to a long war against Egypt), but I win by space race my previous game (already with 1.29) in XIV century (but with short advance). In other games (before 1.29) I usually won by space race in XIX century with large advance.

Did you activate accelerated production? If not you must be playing on a high level with lots of tech trading going on. I am getting the same tech rate on Monarch and Regent as I did before. Launch in the early 1800's.

	27-08-2002 22:10									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Ethelred Did you activate accelerated production? If not you must be playing on a high level with lots of tech trading going on. I am getting the same tech rate on Monarch and Regent as I did before. Launch in the early 1800's.

I play on Monarch level. How do you activate this accelerated production? I do not find it in the preferences and I do not remember having activated such a parameter.
Precision : I play on huge maps with 16 civs (but it's the way I play since long).