20-08-2002 19:23									#1
	A ploy that should have worked (but didn't) Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Huge archipelago map, 80% water, 16 civs.

I am playing Japan. I am sharing an island with the Iriquois (who don't know how to use their UU), and nearby (seperated only by coastal squares) are the Indians. Both the Irisuois and I have wines, iron and horses to spare. India has dyes, 1 horse and no iron. The Indian island is close to me, so that galleys from the Iriquois have to move through my territory to get to India. We are still in the ancient era, so the only shipping trade routes allowed are in coastal squares, as I understand it. Whichever way around our island you go, you have to go through an extended region of coastal (and sea) squares owned by me to move between India and the Iriquois.

I was the last person to get map making, so by the time I did, the Indians and the Iriquois were already trading the wines and dyes between them. This is no good, 'cos I wanted to do that. So I declare war on the Iriquois (which was on the 'things to do' list anyway, obviously). My understanding of the game mechanics is that this should have broken the trade between the Indians and the Iriquois since they no longer have a viable trade route. Which would have given me the pleasure of screwing up both their reputations and also muscling in on the wines, dyes and iron trade with India. No such luck. The trade continues, until after I make peace with India and the evil swine Ghandi decides to go to war with the Iriquois instead. So I got the trade route I wanted (I had a look to see if I could trade the dyes I was importing to the Iriquois, and then import some more from India, but it wouldn't let me; if I'd had one dyes myself (that sounds like bad grammar) then I oculd have done it...)

Th reason I'd expected this to work was that the same thing had happened to me previously, in a different game. I'd been at the eond of a continent, and whichever coast I sailed along I had to go through Egyptian territory. I was trading luxuries with a civ on an island a bit further around the coast, but when Egypt declared war on me (which it did with annoying regularity) I lost the trade route, as my sea route to this other civ was now blocked. (I had the world maps of both civs before going to war to make sure that there was no route they'd found that didn't go through my territory, and when I checked the whole map later there was no coastal or sea route that didn't go through my territory).

Aside: as it happens it was a mildly amusing war, since I was only joined on to the corridor by a narrow neck of land, completely covered in jungle. This was a few patches ago, when all Egypt ever built were war chariots by the bucket-load, so their vast hordes (Egypt was a much bigger civ) were unable to do anything at all, as long as I kept the jungles clear of roads. I had to trash the occasional galley-load but that's not very many troops.

So either the sea-going trade routes don't work the way I thought they did, or there is some kind of bug in the route-finding for trade routes. Or if you don't subscribe to the 'never ascribe to malice what can adequately be explained by stupidity' theory, you can scream that there is an AI cheat, and Firaxis are all evil

Sorry, don't have a save for anyone to look at (foolishly deleted it in a clean-out of my hard disk at the weekend), but does anyone have any light to shed on the trade route issue? It was a bit deflating to think that I was being really clever (I'm modest too) and then have it not work.

	20-08-2002 21:01									#2
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I don't know if this would stop trade but it will stop AI galleys (until Astronomy).

Park 3 galleys in a row along both your coasts. Now since the AI galleys would have to end a turn at Sea to get around you they will not even try to sail in your direction.

With the G-lighthouse you can use 2 galleys (one on the coast and one at sea) to have a blockade with the same effects.

Again I don't know if this is a trade blockade but it stops galleys. It's the best way to hem an AI in with Navy power.

	20-08-2002 22:31									#3
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Interesting account, Vulture. Screenshots or a save file would probably help. I honestly don't know what the answer is, but maybe someone else (hint, hint, Firaxis) can explain it.

-Arrian

	21-08-2002 06:36									#4
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I see your point, thier route no longer existed once you declared war on the Iroquois. I dont know why it didnt work, but ot be honest, i have nevr tried it myself, so i have no previous experIANCES TO SHARE.

	21-08-2002 20:15									#5
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The only thing I can say is that in several such cases my trade routes were blocked also. So I agree that the same thing should have occurred to the AI players. Sofar I have never been in the position you describe but if I ever am able to block the trade routes of two AI players I will certainly try it out.

	22-08-2002 02:14									#6
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Did the two AI civs have existing trade with any other AI civs with harbors? If so, I believe that their trade could be "routed" through a third party.

	22-08-2002 04:48									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Did the two AI civs have existing trade with any other AI civs with harbors? If so, I believe that their trade could be "routed" through a third party.

I didnt think of that, but its true.

	22-08-2002 13:39									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Did the two AI civs have existing trade with any other AI civs with harbors? If so, I believe that their trade could be "routed" through a third party.

No, since we hadn't made contact with any other civs. Using galleys, pre-astronomy, it wasn't possible for any of us to see another land mass - out little island group was entirely surrounded by ocean squares as far as I could see (having traded maps).

However, my current game has (conveniently) produced a comparable situation, on an island with 5 civs. Rome is way up in the north, America right down in the south, Japan(me), India and Germany in the middle. All of Rome's trade routes have to go through German teriitory, all of America's through mine. As it happens, everyone apart from America is at war with Rome, after the treacherous sod backstabbed me (and Ceasar has been reading Theseus's threads and building mixed unit armies ). America can still trade with Rome despite having to do so through the territory of 2 civs at war with Rome. As an experiment, I declared war on America. America can still trade with India and Germany (through my territory) but no longer with Rome.

So my guess here is that both sides in a potential trade have to be blocked from your territory (by war (or trade embargo?)). In my current example, with Germany, India and Japan at war with Rome, America could still trade with the Romans because none of us were blocking American shipping. Once I declared war on America, neither Roman nor America boats could keep up the trade route, so it stopped. America could still trade with India and Germany since they could still create trade routes through my territory.

This is slightly different from how I thought it worked, but all well and good as long as we know what's going on. However, my previous experience when I was the one stuck on the peninsula was that Egypt being at war with me (but not with my trade partner) was enough to sever the trade route. It is possible (and under the circumstances, likely) that the civ I was trading with was at war with someone else, and that war was blocking their shipping while Egypt was blocking mine. Anyone have any counter-examples of having their trade blocked by wars?

	26-08-2002 02:36									#9
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Interesting. From what I've seen, only one of two civs has to have the necessary naval tech for them to trade with one another. So it seems that the cargo is carried by whoever's ships are able. This situation is then another instance of the same principle.

Now, I wonder if the same applies to land routes? That is, a civ you are at peace with can use your land route to trade with a civ you are at war with. I would guess so, since it would be pretty silly if it didn't work the same way in both cases.

Why should other civs automatically be able to move cargo through my territory? They should have to request my permission! I think the answer is that if it were that way, it would be too difficult to set up, and especially to maintain, trade routes in the game. Still, not very historically accurate, I would think.