20-08-2002 19:41									#1
	How does a Civ know... Get a bigger avatar today!

To ask you for contact with another Civ that it hasn't met? Had that happen during negotiations for a MPP and thought it peculiar that when I asked what it would take to get a pact the Russians requested contact with the Zulu's. How did they know they existed?

	20-08-2002 19:54									#2
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if the Russians found the zulus first and they asked you if you wanted an MPP, you would be able to see it in the box on the left!

	20-08-2002 20:00									#3
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i think he means as a game mechanic compared to real life

it makes little sense but i see it as you enticing them with stories of wonders that they cannot yet know, wonders they would love to see for themselves and don't know the location of. So they pay you for the privelage, and are wholly pissed off when they find themselves talking to abe lincoln.

	20-08-2002 20:26									#4
	Full PM-box? Change here!

But if the Russians had found the zulus would they need me to supply them with contact? Seems a bit weird when they could contact them directly then.

	20-08-2002 20:30									#5
	Re: How does a Civ know... Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by walruskkkch To ask you for contact with another Civ that it hasn't met? Had that happen during negotiations for a MPP and thought it peculiar that when I asked what it would take to get a pact the Russians requested contact with the Zulu's. How did they know they existed?

Leaks in your administration, rumors, legend, myth.

The better question is what are they asking for. If you have met a civ you can send a message/emissary on a physical route. When you trade communications does this mean that you are giving away the route? Access to an ambassador that has been posted by that civ in your capitol? Are you agreeing to act as an intermediary for them.

I just think they should take that lot out and require civs to make contact directly.

	20-08-2002 20:40									#6
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When you get contact you also get a map update, don't you? Or just the location of their capitol?

	20-08-2002 20:45									#7
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quote: Originally posted by walruskkkch When you get contact you also get a map update, don't you? Or just the location of their capitol?

No, trading map is a separate matter. When you establish the embassy, you get the location of their capitol. Other than that, you won't get just the location of their capitol.

	20-08-2002 21:14									#8
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That's what I thought.

	20-08-2002 21:24									#9
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Trading "contact" without trading maps always strikes me as a little bit odd.

	20-08-2002 21:33									#10
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Probably from the foreign advisor routines. Thats how we humans find out. All they need is to know what the foreign advisor does before they contact us or even as they contact us. They mostly make a decision each turn as to whether to contact another civ or not and the foreing advisor routines would be involved in that.

Of course there could be a cheat but there is no need for one in this instance.

	20-08-2002 22:10									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Grumbold Trading "contact" without trading maps always strikes me as a little bit odd.

The benefit is that the more civs you know, the cheaper the cost of the techs. Just think of it as trading with alien from another planet. They aliens are out there somewhere in the galaxies; we don't yet know the location of their home planet, but we can still trade with them once we make contact.

	20-08-2002 23:30									#12
	Re: Re: How does a Civ know... Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick I just think they should take that lot out and require civs to make contact directly.

jt - why not mod it so that trading communications isn't available until later in the game - you know, so late that by the time you have the ability it is meaningless because you have met everyone anyway? Personally, I pushed it back to Navigation (along with Map Trading pushed back to Astronomy) just to keep the map covered up that much longer.

Just a thought.

	21-08-2002 00:53									#13
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When A ask you for contact, they have not yet met B only heard of B. A needs B's mailing adress to talk.

	22-08-2002 19:39									#14
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But it's still kind of weird as in the end we are enemies and if some civ request a contact with another I usually begin to think why and the words: "attention: scheme" came into my mind automatically. The nice AI should be a little more careful in talking with others

	23-08-2002 00:57									#15
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Think of it this way - when you are going into negotiations with a rival civ, you aren't just walking up to their palace and knocking on the door. "Hey, Monty, let me in I need to talk to you!" Rather, your foreign advisor sets up a meeting with their foreign advisor. Before the heads of state even meet, the foreign advisors exchange information about what their Civ has to offer. "Hey, tell Monty we've met this amazing other Civ known as the Zulu. Contact with them will allow you untold wealth through trade!" That's how your advisor is able to give you all that info during talks. Of course, it will be quite the letdown for Monty when he discovers the crappy Zulu Civ!

This is how they know what techs you have, what luxuries you have, how much money you have, etc. It's a very workable model for a SP game because of the way the AI assesses trades. I would like to see in MP the option to hide your assets from your opponent during negotiations. The AI isn't actually looking at what you have, but assessing the situation on a purely computational basis. However, if I'm talking to an actual person, and I want their tech for my gold, I sure as hell don't want them knowing that I have tech I could trade them in return. With the AI, if you can match their pre-determined tech value with gold, they will trade it to you no matter how much other tech you have available.

Notice how when at war the AI refuses to see your envoy, not refuses to speak with you. This is because before the face-to-face negotiations with the other leader, your envoy is busy telling the AI about the wondrous Civs you know, the enticing luxuries you have, the incredibly useful resources in your borders, and the amazing tech you possess, while the AI is telling your envoy how much they suck compared to you and can't afford any more than 5 gold for your best tech

	23-08-2002 06:17									#16
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That is the way I think it works Meathead. Of course it could be very different. The AI could have special peaking routines but its my impression that Soren was trying to make it so the AI plays the same game we do except that in few cases he gives them information because of the difficulty of giving the AI a long term strategy. Much of the AI's adavantage is that it is going to check everything every turn but that isn't enough in game where strategic planning and seeing overall patterns can make a huge difference.

The AI also has the handicap that it can't keep track of our patterns over many games and we sure can tell that:

Liz is going to bluff and annoy all the other Civs.

Bismark is going to self-destruct unless he gets lucky.

Catherine is going to extort and annoy the other civs.

Shaka is going to forget about the future and attack now IF you don't have more troops. If you do he is your friend.

If Rome and Greece are both in the game they will damage each other irretrievably.

Joan is going to be polite untill she puts on the T-Shirt and goes to war. Makes a good ally till the modern age. I have seen Joan build privateers.

Honest Abe is another extornionist. I wonder if a Southerner progammed him.

Tokagawa is annoyed with me most of the time so I don't know his pattern except for that. Don't have to deal with him much for some reason.

Cleo wants big bucks for everything.

Ghandi is dangerous if allowed to survive. A good builder and a another that charges a lot.

Don't run into Hammarabi much but he sure does have high culture if he lasts long.

Persia is similar in that respect but if he is my neighbor I want him gone before he has iron.

---------------------------

I am playing Persia at the moment and my neighbor was Rome. A potential classic war between UU in the ancient era. However I wiped out Rome with horsies and kept my Imortals in reserve. I was able to get away with that because poor ol' Ceasar had iron deficiency anemia.

	23-08-2002 07:04									#17
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This has probably been discussed ad naseum, but what annoys me is that the AI never seems to buy my mailing address from another AI civ. I have to purchase the communicatin or meet face to face.

	24-08-2002 00:31									#18
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The AI is willing to pay lots of gold for communications if you are the only one having it.

	24-08-2002 01:24									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Hagbart The AI is willing to pay lots of gold for communications if you are the only one having it.

Yup, but most of the time, especially at the tougher level, they are the ones that having it.

	24-08-2002 07:35									#20
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Hagbart, what I believe asleepathewheel means is not that civ A won't purchase communications with civ B from him, but that civ X will never buy contact with him from civ Y. He knows this because he never sees a civ suddenly contacting him that he had no previous contact with. Maybe this is something that can happen, but only occurs occasionally (at least on the lower difficulty levels) like other civs establishing embassies with you. After all, the human generally does most of the diplomacy in the game (if you're playing it right! ).

	24-08-2002 08:47									#21
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quote: Originally posted by JohnM2433 Hagbart, what I believe asleepathewheel means is not that civ A won't purchase communications with civ B from him, but that civ X will never buy contact with him from civ Y. He knows this because he never sees a civ suddenly contacting him that he had no previous contact with. Maybe this is something that can happen, but only occurs occasionally (at least on the lower difficulty levels) like other civs establishing embassies with you. After all, the human generally does most of the diplomacy in the game (if you're playing it right! ).

That's exactly what I meant.
which is annoying when since the AI civs will trade each other everyone's communication except for mine.

granted, it IS in their best interest not to allow me contact