21-08-2002 00:24									#1
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Whenever I get my first GL I always use it to build an army. I find that this is a good idea because if you are unlucky and don't get any more great leaders you can still build Heroic Epic, Military Academy, and Pentagon. What are some other uses for your frist GL? If you where going to use it to build a wonder which one would you build for every time period?

	21-08-2002 00:37									#2
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FP.

Wonders are really map and situation dependant. I can't give a general answer to this question, but the FP is what I usually build.

	21-08-2002 00:59									#3
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It depends on the situation. I often play militaristic civs, and fight a lot. Lots of fighting with the militaristic promotion bonus = lots of elites, and hopefully lots of leaders.

I have gone in several different directions with that 1st leader. Generally, the later it comes, the more likely I am to use it on the FP, because I want my FP & surrounding area up and running by the early to mid middle ages. The FP is more powerful than any one wonder of the world, if it is well-placed. When I say well-placed, I mean that it provides at least a 50% increase in your number of productive cities. A perfectly placed FP pretty much doubles your productive empire. No great wonder can touch that.

I have used an early leader on the Pyramids, hoping to get another for the FP. This is a huge gamble, but if it works (if you are lucky enough to get another relatively early GL), it's great.

I've gone the army route, and the best result was my 12-leader game. However, I should also mention the game where my brand new, shiny archer army lost 12 straight combat rolls to a regular spearman and died.

The question of what to do with the leader really comes down to cost-benifit analysis. Would you trade a "free" great wonder or forbidden palace to boost your chances of generating future great leaders by 25% (from 1/16 to 1/12 on offense and 1/32 to 1/24 on defense) per elite unit victory? You also have to factor in the shield cost of the HE (200 shields?).

But even then, the question is open to debate. Leaders are worth more a certain times in the game than they are at others. I would argue that early leaders are immensely powerful, as are leaders that show up in the middle ages (due to a large number of powerful great wonders). After that, their power drops significantly. Therefore, 1 leader in 1000bc is worth several in 1700AD, don't you think?

-Arrian

	21-08-2002 02:04									#4
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In my opinion, what to do with your first great leader is completely dependent on what your plans are for the rest of the game. If you plan on being in constant confilct then you are better off using the leader to make an army as this will help you generate more GLs as you continue to conquer (hopefully) other civs. If you are going the peaceful builder route I would recommend using the GL to build a wonder. This is simply because as a peaceful civ the military small wonders wont help that much simply because you wont fighting often. I wouldnt recommend using the GL to build a FP unless you have a huge corrupt empire. The reason why is that you can always build a FP but only one civ can have a particular great wonder. Great Wonders also take many more shields to build then the FP. FP's can also be built fairly quickly in any decent sized city with a courthouse.

	21-08-2002 03:31									#5
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Building the FP quickly? If so then it is not in the best place. Or do you use an alternative, like building the FP close to the palace and then building the palace elsewhere?

Being a builder I generally have a very hard time getting the FP and one out of three games or so I just have to sit out the 200 turns it takes for a city that with one shield. So I am interested in any alternative that works.

	21-08-2002 03:36									#6
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My answer would also be, it depends. Although a Forbidden Palace or a Palace jump is always high on my priority list.

In particular, it depends on many things. For instance, the difficulty level. Am I able to finish the Pyramids or the Great Library for good, or do I need a leader to beat the AI production bonus? How many elites do I have? Do I intend and do I have the power to fight much more, or is my offensive already faltering? Am I militaristic? How are my chances to generate another leader?

If I see a prolongued military campaign ahead, I may decide for an army or an early wonder. If not and I consider myself lucky to have made that one leader, I'll probably decide to build an FP or do a palace jump (if I can't make a free one).

	21-08-2002 03:55									#7
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I'm with Sheik on this one: an army opens up all sorts of options all through the game - as long as you can win once with it. But depending on map, civ, time and AIs, I could see myself throwing a GL at any one of a number of key or jolly useful wonders: Pyramids, Great Library, Sistine, Bach, Univ. Suffrage, or Hoover (I loooove Hoover, makes all those history lessons on 20s and 30s America seem worthwhile somehow). And do you want another civ to have Copernicus, Newton or SETI. Or the UN...

OK, maybe I agree with Jawa Jockey too...

Bluesman

	21-08-2002 06:27									#8
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I'd never waste a GL on an army. Never.

	21-08-2002 06:30									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Coracle I'd never waste a GL on an army. Never.

I always waste at least one, just so I casn get all of the wonders that I can.

For culture, of course.

	21-08-2002 10:30									#10
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BTW, in a 1.21 game, I got my first GL just as I was about to finish someone off. Made an army of 2 swords and used it to disperse a barbarian encampment. Even this enabled my building the Heroic Epic.

2 or 3 combats later against another civ the army met its demise. I hadn't had the opportunity fill it out yet.

	21-08-2002 17:52									#11
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Good to see Coracle filling in the void of cynisism in this thread

I'll usually use my first GL for an army unless there is a really important wonder comming up (Great Library, Sistene Chapel, Hoover Dam, etc). There's also something appealing about an army which I can't pass up.

	21-08-2002 18:43									#12
	Re: Your first GL Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Sheik Whenever I get my first GL I always use it to build an army. I find that this is a good idea because if you are unlucky and don't get any more great leaders you can still build Heroic Epic, Military Academy, and Pentagon. What are some other uses for your frist GL? If you where going to use it to build a wonder which one would you build for every time period?

I always use my first leader to build the army and send it to win a battle as soon as possible. I usually use the second GL to rush the Hero Epic or the forbidden palace.

	21-08-2002 23:35									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Moonsinger I always use my first leader to build the army and send it to win a battle as soon as possible. I usually use the second GL to rush the Hero Epic or the forbidden palace.

Me too. I always build an army with the first one, and use ALL subsequent ones to rush buildings. I'll even rush mundane buildings (that is, non-wonders) if I have a GL and no wonders coming in the near future. That way the elite units can keep producing more GLs.

	23-08-2002 19:11									#14
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I faced this decision in my most recent game. I was trying out a little challenge one of my friends laid down:

Play standard/60% water/continents, Monarch, Egypt, vs. 7 AIs, and see if I could beat his score... while testing out his strategy.

I didn't quite use his strategy (an all-out war chariot flood) and I didn't beat his score (he milked until 1950AD, I won in 1720), but things did go rather well. I used more of a hybrid strat... using swordsmen for a while before unleashing the chariots, while I beelined for Monarchy. As a result, my GA was in Monarchy.

I actually got attacked first, by the silly Queen Lizzy, and ended up taking London in 950bc. London was a loooong way from home. I was also fighting the Iroquois and Russians. I got my first GL before I could even build the FP (I was still 2 cities short). Nevertheless, I sent him to London and waited. This was such a no-brainer... if I had a screenshot of the map, you would understand. FP in London, game essentially over, even if it took another couple of millenia.

I got 1 more GL before "garbage time" at the end. I was torn on what to do (army, or hold for a key medieval wonder?). I indended to go builder for a long stretch of time, and I was concerned about what the (as yet undiscovered) overseas civs were doing. Greece nabbed Sun Tzu while I was still researching my first medieval tech, which freaked me out, so I held my 2nd GL for the Sistine, while pre-building Leo's. As it turned out, I made contact a little later and the overseas AIs had stagnated tech-wise... I was even with Greece and ahead of the other 3.

-Arrian

p.s. The same amount of fighting with a militaristic civ probably would have given me a couple more GLs, but with an awesome builder civ like Egypt, 2 is plenty.

	24-08-2002 03:24									#15
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I build an army (an Herioc Epic asap). Always if I'm not playing a militaristic civ -- otherwise, I hardly ever seem to get leaders. Even if I'm militaristic, I tend to build the army.
With two exceptions.
1) If I'm nearly alone on a small island continent, I will build the Lighthouse (figuring I will probably kill off my close rival in one war to seize the entire landmass -- meaning the possibility of a long stretch without the possibility of creating another leader).
2) If a leader has been a long time in coming, and my empire is already growing large enough to make corruption a factor, then the FP. In those cases, I tend to get very aggressive, going to war again soon, to get a second leader and start building that army.

	24-08-2002 09:16									#16
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It's usually one or the other

1. FP - if I am conquering an island far away, and I want to bring a stronghold to launch further attacks. But before the FP, I would rush the temple & library first to avoid culture flipping.
2. Army - when otherwise.