21-08-2002 02:47									#1
	Commies vs. Facists Democ ./Republic vs. Commies Technocracy vs. Ectopia etc etc Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Commies vs. Facists Democ ./Republic vs. Commies Technocracy vs. Ectopia etc etc

I was thinking the other day. It would be highly unlikely for a Democratic country to be allied to a Communist one. It would probably be unlikely that those to countries where even at peace (take the cold war) or for the same to happen with Democratic vs. Facist (take WW2).

Well, could these sort of attitudes be implemented into the diplomacy of CtP2.

For example you had newly met at civilization. You where a Democratic civ (where in the government named (Democracy) and they where facists (in the government aptly named (Facism) U GET THE POINT.
They offer u peace or vice versa and peace is accepted. BUT they dont like the fact that your in a Democracy and send you a nice diplomatic message stating this eg. "We see you are still Democratic in your ways of thinking, and we warn you if you continue down this path our Peace Treaty will be no longer".or whatever.

At this point you will have say 20turns or whatever to change your government to Facism and hear no more warnings of that nature from ur neighbour. However if you do not suceed in doing this you will either hear one or two more warinings from your neighbour before they send you a final diplomatic message saying they have declared war on you and the reasons why. Alternatly they could aswell as the last option (not instead of) just declare war on you and its up to you to figure out the reason why (pretty obviouse)

As well as this you would have and extra option in your diplomacy list, to warn neighbour (in the same way as above) that you do not like what government they are in, (of course if you are in democracy you couldnt threaten another civ in democracy or republic for that matter).

This option could also be used as a counter - proposal
Finaly if they did not agree, you could declare war on them

In the future the AI would use this option with such governments as Technocracy vs. Ectopia. As Technocracy is all for technology and scientific improvements and doesnt give to much thought about the environment and ectopia the is exactly the oposite.


Anyway, i think i have gone a rather awkward way to explain this idea. But if youve read through it, simplified it in your head and understood it. Do any of you modders think it could be done, i remeber something voughly, that was similar to this in SMAC. Anyway get back to me on what u think about it


SMIFFGIG

	21-08-2002 20:54									#2
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I like this idea, and it is historically based to an extent. The only problem that I can see is that it would make a diplomatic victory more difficult but, it would add another strategic element to contend with, so it could make things very interesting.

	21-08-2002 21:19									#3
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Diplomatic Victory was always too easy anyway. Its never gonna happen in real life, well not in the foreseeable future(prolly US win most likely) so it should make it much harder. Peace treaties yes, but alliances between Democratic/Dictatorship/Fundamentalist, very unlikely.

Maybe that would make the diplo victory into some sort of genocide-run Kill all the non-believers and make alliances with the rest.

The threaten-alliance tactic should be removed too.

Like the idea!

	21-08-2002 21:22									#4
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Unless of course you asked them to switch governments and they agreed, because your emipre was larger and more prosperous. Some just wouldnt give in though. Especially the religeous governments.

	21-08-2002 21:31									#5
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Yes... This would make it very hard to win by Diplomacy, unless you could get AIs to ally for war time purposes. (Do you think America would ally with the Northern Alliance if they weren't Taliban-hunting?)

	21-08-2002 22:15									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat Yes... This would make it very hard to win by Diplomacy, unless you could get AIs to ally for war time purposes. (Do you think America would ally with the Northern Alliance if they weren't Taliban-hunting?)

So much for the high principles of Democracy, if a Dictator is useful for America then who cares on stupid stuff like human right and freedom. Actual this is a question of power and not of ideals, the USA supported in the past dictators and they will do in the future, if they are useful. And to be honsest, we use the form of government in CTP2 that gives us the biggest advantage and don't take care on the governments of our opponents, in a bloodlust game we conquer them all anyway.

-Martin

	21-08-2002 22:32									#7
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But if we are gotng to implement this how do we know wich gov the player has? How will we give the bonus?

	21-08-2002 22:43									#8
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Yes, but if this was implemented and you had warned a neighbouring civ and they had not changed within 20 turns or whatever. It would give you and exscuse to wage war on that civ, without damaging your reputation or damaging it nearlly as much as it would if you were to just attack them for no reason.

This would also work for the AI if they demanded the same from you. This could be worked so that the AI are more aggressive, but not senselessly agressive.

eg they wouldnt build up and army or start pillaging you for no reason always. But could ask for this demand and then attack you if u didnt respond. This would give them a reason and not damage there reuputation as badly.

Im sure it could be worked , to work out good for both AI and human players.

and what Martin said about, the USA for example allying with whomever they liked for there best interests. Well then you could ally with a facist civ (say they had advances or goods u wanted) and just not make the demand for them to change governments. It would then work in both the interests of the Democratics and the Facists.

The option of demanding another civ to change governments would only be used for a number of reasons

1.U just wanted to start a war, and hoping they will accept your demand. This could go further as you may want to try waging war through this option, so your reputation doesnt get as badly tarnished.

2.Used as a counter-proposal eg they demanded something from u first and u want them to go through the hassle of changing governmets, mostly likely to a worse government

3.If you just wanted to threaten the AI or the AI threaten the human. To show whos on top. That kinda thing. I know if the AI where threatening me about this and they where twice as powerful as me, i would think twice about changing or what a asked or did to them in the future.

However the AI will most likely not accept this demand and will break peace from you (if they are at peace with you) for making it. This will not mean your at war just not at peace. It will also greatly damage what they think of you

SMIFFGIG

	21-08-2002 22:54									#9
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Pedrunn But if we are gotng to implement this how do we know wich gov the player has?

Ah yes. This is not possible.

	21-08-2002 23:12									#10
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Aside from not being possible (although with some workarounds...), I don't really like the idea either. The example of the US was mentioned twice already and that's just one example, there are many others (Nazi Germany is an excellent other one: they initially flirted with Communist Russia, allied with Democratic Finland, Hungary & Bulgaria and Fundamentalist Japan, etc). It would be nice to have government type have some effect on diplomacy but IMHO it shouldn't be nearly as strong as suggested here...