21-08-2002 08:49									#31
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Nope, selling isn't inherently wrong, and sex isn't inherently wrong, therefore selling sex isn't inherently wrong.

	21-08-2002 08:53									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident But seriously can anyone claim that pornograhpy is not demeaning to women?

Yes. Its extremely sexist and blindly so to make that claim.

How the heck is it inhereintly demeaning to women with NO MENTION OF MEN, when men are in the same photo?

If its not demeaning for men to be in the porn then it sure can't be demeaning for women. Unless of course you are a sexist pig. And then your wrong on two counts.

	21-08-2002 08:57									#33
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you obviously not have seen some of the more extreme porn. Of course men are in the photo. But how they are depicted is a different story.

But perhaps this is the wrong place to ask it. Can a man truelly answer this question correctly? If I ask this in a femenist forum I will get a far different response. Should I believe a man over a woman?

Does anyone know of any good feminist forums?

	21-08-2002 09:09									#34
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if they're being paid to do it and are willing, I don't see why it should even be an issue...it's THEIR choice...

	21-08-2002 09:15									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident you obviously not have seen some of the more extreme porn. Of course men are in the photo. But how they are depicted is a different story.

I have only rented that stuff once and only by mistake not knowing what was going on in it. Don't kid yourself about that crap. I know its out there. I find that stuff demeaning to everyone involved. I have to wonder just what sort of person finds it stimulating.

I know the one of the guys that was making what can only be called hostile porn has apologized to the women when the camera was off. He got sneered at for that statement and he deserved to be sneered at. If he thought it deserved an apology he shouldn't have been doing it.

Then again James Cameron apologized to people for some the stuff on the Abyss. However thats not quite the same thing.

quote: But perhaps this is the wrong place to ask it. Can a man truelly answer this question correctly? If I ask this in a femenist forum I will get a far different response. Should I believe a man over a woman?

More sexism. You just put down all of mankind.

Here is a link for you. Definitly a feminist. Also a former porn actress. Don't expect anything pornographic of directly related to this discussion. Just interesting.

Brandy Alexandre's home page

She is active on the usnet group rec.arts.movies.erotica and rather outspoken. Makes enemies of course as she is definitly a Flame Warrior.

	21-08-2002 09:15									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident But I have seen some pretty demeaning stuff. We're not talking your basic hardcore. much more extreme than that.

What is the attraction of that? (don't answer that)

You might as well look at lab slides of genitalia. Boring, boring, boring.

	21-08-2002 09:17									#37
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I would think raping women and knifepoint on tape is pretty demeaning. Stuff like simulated rape and whips should be banned. Amatuer porn is bad too. I watched on HBO once 2 guys in a bus going around picking up girls. Its sad none of them used any kind of protection. That should be illegal who knows what kind of diseases those guys are spreading.

I have no problem with good porn. I just dont want to watch it. But if you cant do anything else in life. I guess it should be there.

	21-08-2002 09:22									#38
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quote: Originally posted by LaurenX2C I watched on HBO once 2 guys in a bus going around picking up girls.

Seen those photos

	21-08-2002 09:27									#39
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What did James Cameron apologize for on the Abyss? I loved that movie. Off-topic- but it's my topic

	21-08-2002 09:36									#40
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quote: Originally posted by LaurenX2C Amatuer porn is bad too. I watched on HBO once 2 guys in a bus going around picking up girls. Its sad none of them used any kind of protection. That should be illegal who knows what kind of diseases those guys are spreading.

Those guys are not going around picking up girls. They only pretend too. The girls are often in other films. Its fake. The protection as an AIDs certificate. They are tested or they don't get in the video.

Well at least I hope they are. Thats standard in the porn business and those guys really aren't picking up girls they hadn't met before.

	21-08-2002 09:39									#41
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Feminists and others often say hetero pornography is demeaning to women. What about gay pornography? No one seems to think that is demeaning to the participants.

	21-08-2002 09:41									#42
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good point about that. Alli discusses some differences in gay porn in her porn video store diaries.

gay porn for some reason doesn't seem demeaning for the most part. Although I should mention there is porn bukkake (don't ask). I haven't seen it but can imagine.

	21-08-2002 09:49									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident What did James Cameron apologize for on the Abyss? I loved that movie. Off-topic- but it's my topic

The drowning and CPR scene went on a long time. Mary Elizabeth Mastrantonio walked off the set she was so upset. The shots of Ed Harris looking down at her were done then as they couldn't continue with her part till the next day.

Ed Harris nearly drowned once. The shoot just plain ground people down. Much of the crew had to decompress at the end of the day. None of the actors did because Cameron insisted on that but everyone else was subject to the possibility. He himself looked at the dailies underwater while decompressing.

	21-08-2002 10:16									#44
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If something is demeaning, it's wrong?


Truth:

If pornography was illegal, there are many people who would never ever see the opposite sex naked. Are they to be denied this because a third party believes it's wrong?

Banning pornography is banning all artistic nudity in all forms. You cannot draw lines and define differences between naked and nude, attractive and suggestive. We're beyond that.

	21-08-2002 10:17									#45
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*hides apx. 2 gigs of his computer away*

	21-08-2002 10:34									#46
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naked pictures are not pornography!!

	21-08-2002 10:39									#47
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well that's a relief

	21-08-2002 21:54									#48
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I'd say it really depends on the porn. It doesn't have to be demeaning to women, but let's face it: 90% of porn is...

	21-08-2002 22:49									#49
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Dissident -

quote: you obviously not have seen some of the more extreme porn

But that doesn't support the proposition that porn is inherently wrong, only that some porn might be demeaning to women.

	21-08-2002 23:13									#50
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How can a woman getting reamed in the poop shoot and then covered in semen NOT be considered degrading?

	21-08-2002 23:53									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger I doubt most porn women are having orgasms. I might have trouble orgasming in front of 5 cameras...

A lot of men end up faking it too.

Yes- this is possible.

	22-08-2002 00:02									#52
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I agree with Ethy that porn is degrading to men as well. Perhaps much more so actually, since the assumption in producing it is that men are simple-minded barbarians.

	22-08-2002 00:11									#53
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most are

	22-08-2002 00:50									#54
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porn is degreading to both (men and women)

I agree that there is different levels of degrading

and I will agree that women are usually more degraded than men

Jon Miller

	22-08-2002 00:55									#55
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although i find it mostly quite distasteful, degrading, and often, interesting only in the prurient sense, i don't know whether to be convinced by female porn stars claims to be "artists" and what not, saying that it's "liberating" to be such libertines...

sometimes, i doth think the queen protest too much...

	22-08-2002 01:25									#56
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I, actually, see little difference between some pornstars and some actors

Jon Miller

	22-08-2002 01:44									#57
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I voted yes, but that doesn´t mean I´m opposed to porn per se. And as some others pointed out it´s degrading to men as well, alltough not as much I suppose.

	22-08-2002 01:46									#58
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men are brain-dead barbarians when it comes to sex.

I still don't see how it can be degrading to men.

And most porn probably isn't degrading to women. But producers are pushing it farther and farther (is that the right term to use? ). Porn was quite tame in the 70's and 80's. But some of the sh!t I have seen lately is way over the line.

	22-08-2002 02:00									#59
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yes

I have seen a lot of horrid stuff, and I am not even looking for it (I just *ahem* occasionally wish to see naked women)

Jon Miller

	22-08-2002 02:02									#60
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yes we can all agree naked women are good. we need more of them.

My goal in life would be to declare magazines like Playboy not to be porn. And relax the public indecency laws. Although that could cause problems. I don't think we want to relax laws too much on men considering how many disturbed men are out there. But of course that is a serious double standard.