21-08-2002 19:47									#1
	Is there a way to disable great leaders? Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

The single most frustrating thing about Civ III for me is the whole great leader concept. It's like a slot machine, where each combat is a pull of the handle. If you're lucky, after your first combat you hear many clinking sounds and a great leader falls into your lap. Game over, you win. If you're unlucky, you can spend the whole game waiting for that elusive great leader to appear. I'm not putting down people who like slot machines. Obviously, there are enough of them that whole cities have been built to accomodate them. But it's just not the style of game I'm looking for.

I want to finish the game feeling like I won due to my own efforts and skill, not by some single "hand of God" event. I typically play with goody huts and barbarians turned off; I suspect I'd find the game a lot more satisfying if I could also turn off great leaders.

	21-08-2002 20:02									#2
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I don't think so, but..
you can (via the editor), have an other unit pop-up, when your Elite wins a battle.

wich has the same effect .

	21-08-2002 21:09									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I'd have to agree with you Dave. While I try to avoid posts that ***** about the luck factor in the game (the old spearman-beating-a-tank tirade), I agree that I have had a severe drought of great leaders (often not even getting one) in Civ3. I have played the Aztecs and Chinese several times, frequently attack with elite units, and over the course of 5 games I believe I have seen only 2 great leaders. It IS too luck-based and the benefits of the unit DO unbalance the game. Rather than turn it off, however, it would be nice to somehow equalize the luck factor - for instance, one GL is guaranteed per Civ per game.

	21-08-2002 21:40									#4
	Remove this text

I think non-combat GLs (who cannot build armies) would equalize the game some. That way, peaceful players can have them as well as warmongers. Maybe any time your cultural borders expand, a 1 in 50 (just a suggestion) chance of a GL occurs. This would encourage building as a strategy rather than conquering one's neighbors to get leaders.

I also think that struggling civs should get GLs more often. Some of history's greatest people have come from when their nation was downtrodden. Maybe the GL generation could double if there is a large tech disparity between the fighting civs. Like a spearman (elite or not) beating a tank could be more likely to generate a GL since it was such an inprobable victory. The grumblers wouldn't like that.

I agree that GLs can unbalance the game. If there were more than one way to get them, I think it would even out some.

	21-08-2002 22:22									#5
	Re: Is there a way to disable great leaders? Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by DaveV . . . . I suspect I'd find the game a lot more satisfying if I could also turn off great leaders.

Alva is correct (though I've never experimented with it myself). Open the editor and I think on the "General Settings" tab, along the right side of the window, there are dropdowns for "Start Unit 1," Start Unit 2," etc. -- one of them is "Battle-Created Unit" and I presume changing this to a worker or some such thing would get you where you want to be. [Someone please correct me if I am mistaken - don't have the game or the editor in front of me.]

Catt

	21-08-2002 22:34									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Catt and alva848 - thanks, I haven't messed around with the editor and missed that option. I disobeyed the cardinal rule of making changes, and altered two things at once. I changed the battle-generated unit to explorer, and changed the prerequisite tech of the military academy to "none" and removed the "requires victorious army" check (intending to make it posssible, albeit expensive, to have armies). Now every city can build leaders for a cost of zero! Not really what I was after...

Incan - guaranteeing a leader to every civ isn't really enough, IMHO. A GL in 1000BC is a game-breaker; a GL in AD 1500 has much less impact.

	21-08-2002 23:41									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

just had four great leaders in my emperor level Roman Civ game - sadly i couldn't use them on WoW's as I was so far behind the AI's in the tech race

Saying that I went through a period of about 40 successful combat operations and failed to have a single veteran go elite...

swings & roundabouts I guess

	22-08-2002 01:34									#8
	Re: Is there a way to disable great leaders? Support Apolyton

"Is there a way to disable great leaders?" A piece of cake!

Method 1: If you happen to get a Great Leader, just simply fortify him at the front entrance of your palace until then end of your game. He would make a wonderful statue...you know enhancing the beauty of your palace. Btw, the GL doesn't require any gold for upkeep.

Method 2: Since nobody is putting a gun to your head and forcing you to use the Great Leader, just disband the him immediately when he shows up. Firaxis has already built a hot key for that too, just hit "D" to disband.

Last edited by Moonsinger on 22-08-2002 at 01:43

	22-08-2002 02:37									#9
	Re: Re: Is there a way to disable great leaders? Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Moonsinger ... Method 1: If you happen to get a Great Leader, just simply fortify him at the front entrance of your palace until then end of your game. He would make a wonderful statue...you know enhancing the beauty of your palace. Btw, the GL doesn't require any gold for upkeep. ...

This would work quite well -- if all of a sudden you see an enemy army (of course, YOU wouldn't have any), you could, in desparation, create an army yourself.

To disable the whole army concept because you don't like GL's ...
To enable GL's through peacetime efforts (not combat) and to have them lead an army ...

Perhaps I just like the game as it is too much.

	22-08-2002 07:43									#10
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by DaveV Catt and alva848 - thanks, I haven't messed around with the editor and missed that option. I disobeyed the cardinal rule of making changes, and altered two things at once. I changed the battle-generated unit to explorer, and changed the prerequisite tech of the military academy to "none" and removed the "requires victorious army" check (intending to make it posssible, albeit expensive, to have armies). Now every city can build leaders for a cost of zero! Not really what I was after...

I looked in the editor briefly this evening, and I suspect that there is an easier method to accomplish your goal. Go to the "Units" tab; from the upper dropdown select "Leader;" uncheck the "Great Leader" box from the "AI Strategy" section; uncheck the two special actions "Finish Improvement" and "Build Army" from the section on the upper right (can't remember the name). I would expect this to make GLs still appear, but they would be essentially useless units.

	22-08-2002 20:34									#11
	Re: Re: Re: Is there a way to disable great leaders? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Jaybe This would work quite well -- if all of a sudden you see an enemy army (of course, YOU wouldn't have any), you could, in desparation, create an army yourself.

It doesn't matter if you did that in desperation or not, you already lost the game. Once you set out the rule of the game, you shouldn't break the rule. Even if no one know that you break the rules, you already lost because your conscious said so.

	22-08-2002 22:56									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Go to the unit screen in the editor, go down to Leader, and take a look at the list of abilities in the bottom-left-hand corner. "Leader" is one of them. Remove this ability by CTRL-clicking.

(I haven't tried this, and it could end up crashing the game if a GL is supposed to pop up. You could set it so that instead of a leader, you-- or anyone else in play-- get, say, a Warrior... )

	22-08-2002 23:28									#13
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Vlad Antlerkov (I haven't tried this, and it could end up crashing the game if a GL is supposed to pop up. You could set it so that instead of a leader, you-- or anyone else in play-- get, say, a Warrior... )

Well, since you have to pay upkeep for the warrior (republic or democracy), it would be better just to keep the same as is. If the leader pop up, just simply disband him if you don't want him.

	22-08-2002 23:36									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Moonsinger Well, since you have to pay upkeep for the warrior (republic or democracy), it would be better just to keep the same as is. If the leader pop up, just simply disband him if you don't want him.

I guess the thread starter wanted to get rid of ALL leaders, not just his own ones. If you simply disband any one that emerges for you, there are still those emerging for the AIs (they will probably not disband them just 'cause you did... ).

I'd agree that leaders are overpowered as far as rushing wonders is concerned. Unfortunately, I can't see a way to just "tone them down" using the tools we currently have. Eliminating them completely or putting up with the way they are implemented now seems to be the only balanced options...

Just BTW - I have never messed with the editor, so if I may ask someone who did... is it possible to disable just the "rush improvement" feature of the great leaders?

	22-08-2002 23:47									#15
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by vondrack I guess the thread starter wanted to get rid of ALL leaders, not just his own ones. If you simply disband any one that emerges for you, there are still those emerging for the AIs (they will probably not disband them just 'cause you did... ).

Since the thread starter said I want to finish the game feeling like I won due to my own efforts and skill, not by some single "hand of God" event. I took it that he means it's ok for God to be with the AIs. As for him, he doesn't need any help from God and he wants to win by his own efforts and skills alone.