21-08-2002 20:56									#1
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From Vel's ever-useful Strategy Guide I took the concept of surrounding my continent with a string of non-combat units (I usually build a lot of Probe teams before I get crawlers ... especially with Yang). The unarmoured units are fine before Doc:Initiative or Doc:Air Power, but after this they fail miserably against marines and aircraft. When I get the techs, I therefore add clean AAA garrisons (silksteel+, usually).
Today, I played a bit in the scenario editor to test the real defensive values of the combination of different setups. Usually, I made bunkers along the coast line, and recently, I added forests into the mix. Now my great disappointment:
While I thought that forests and rocky terrain are treated alike, it is not true. Only rocky terrain gives a 50% bonus for defense against aircraft. Due to my now-favourite 2-in-diagonal base spacing, all the coastline gets coverage by those wonderful unsnipable sensor arrays - but as long as the defender holds out, there wouldn't be any problem to build the array in the forest at the coast. Then my defense values are (neglecting morale)
against marines: forest*bunker*sensor = 2.81*armour (3.52*armour with Geosynchonous Survey Pods)
against aircraft: AAA*sensor = 2.5*armour (3.13*armour with GSP)
against aircraft on rocky terrain: AAA*rocky*sensor = 3.75*armour (4.69*armour with GSP).
It would be possible to plant fungus instead of forest, this gives the same defensive value as rocky terrain but is an invitation for native forces. Actively looking for approaching ships would make this danger negligible until the advent of locusts - and makes the Pholus Mutagen a much more important SP - if you get it, Fungus is the best defense, if not, change to forest ASAP.

So, what are you experts playing: Do you build such a "Maginot" line, or isn't it worth all the minerals and former time? Do you know any other tricks (on a landward defense line, raising terrain probably is a good idea to get another 12% ...)? Do you put more units, e. g. ECM to make a marine rover assault definitely impossible (5.62*armour, which is more than 22 with a silksteel armour)?

	21-08-2002 22:00									#2
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While I'm no expert....

In my SP games I like to have coastal bases, so my Maginot line is usually trawlers bringing in the kelp for my specialist just off the coast.

Against a determined attack, they are toast even when armored and with sensors nearby, but they serve their defensive purpose of early warning and stalling an attack all the while being productive during peacetime.

Keep an copter in the base and that one turn is all you'll need to eliminate the attack. A few turns later and the trawlers will be replaced and the workers can go back to the libraries.

	22-08-2002 14:14									#3
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Im not sure wheter Worms appear in Fungus when u have an Unit in the same space. The Pop sometimes appear on Formers but on Military Units?

	22-08-2002 18:06									#4
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Worms can appear under your existing military units as well when a fungal pop occurs. Likewise fungal towers for SMAX.

	23-08-2002 01:39									#5
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I have used this barrier method occasionally but it is so situation dependent. Most times when I have used it, it was just on a limited portion of my coastline and I relied on aggressive patrolling to keep me aware of possible invaders elsewhere

My preferred method of "defence" is almost always to have some strong attackers available to hit at the invasion force and enough advance notice to get the first smack. I used the barrier method on occasions where I see that I have another faction nearby but just across the sea

Is it worthwhile ?? Of course it is . . . Usually I just make it so that my crawlers are harvesting from coastal squares. AS for probe teams, they are never a wasted investment . . . they can form part of the barrier before being sent out exploring.

	23-08-2002 01:41									#6
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I've always been skeptical about this Iron Curtain thing; it seems that you would spend so much time and energy setting it up that you would have won the game before you finished it. Or, if you really needed this defensive position, you would have been overrun before you were even half done.

That said, one can use a haphazard buffer zone of crawlers to serve as early warning, to block off key sea bottlenecks against 'friendly' encroachment and to slightly inconvenience an invader (at the cost of having your production planning disrupted when the crawlers are zapped).

Myself, I generally don't stop expanding as the game goes on, so a solid line of stuff would get in my own way instead of the enemy's, although it is perfectly reasonable to have a leading edge of formers and crawlers just ahead of your CP's to help get new bases off to a quick start and do all the other things.

	23-08-2002 02:03									#7
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quote: Worms can appear under your existing military units as well when a fungal pop occurs. Likewise fungal towers for SMAX.

I've seen that after s. Does this also happen with normal spawning of worms?

	23-08-2002 12:19									#8
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quote: Originally posted by johndmuller I've always been skeptical about this Iron Curtain thing; it seems that you would spend so much time and energy setting it up that you would have won the game before you finished it. Or, if you really needed this defensive position, you would have been overrun before you were even half done.

I find building a defensive wall fairly useful, though my techniques and timing vary considerably from those described above. I tend to build one early on, after my crawler industry bootstrap. I use the "don't give them a square to land on" technique in order to block Santiago or Sven from showing up before I have any military techs and messing up my early game economic focus.

Later in the game I may be cruising happily along and find that someone (often everyone else) has decided to make my life as difficult as possible by attacking from various directions by various means. As a strong proponent of 2x2 spacing I already have in place a strong defensive structure. Usually the addition of a few aircraft make that position unassailable. Sometimes however the enemy makes a strong enough effort to force me to occupy every square of my perimeter. IIRC Adalbertus uses blind research, which explains to some extent how he might be in a position where this sort of threat might be more common.

Yes you might well be able to overrun the enemy using the energy you are spending on defense, but in most cases I am trying to win a non-conquest victory, and don't really feel like capturing and administering AI bases. An unassailable defense is a useful / fun alternative to taking it directly to the AI.

quote: Originally posted by johndmuller Myself, I generally don't stop expanding as the game goes on, so a solid line of stuff would get in my own way instead of the enemy's, although it is perfectly reasonable to have a leading edge of formers and crawlers just ahead of your CP's to help get new bases off to a quick start and do all the other things.

This is why I don't build bunkers. My base pattern provides an immense amount of defensive capability, and flexibilty as well, but I don't bother building permanent defensive positions because in all likelihood I will be expanding in every direction eventually. I may put a line of defenders out to soak up enemy harrassment, but behind them the defensive web is being woven tightly. Row by row the net is filled in with bases, crawlers and defenders, including a healthy number of interceptors around the periphery to keep enemy former and crawler sniping to a minimum.

	23-08-2002 23:28									#9
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When I know where the limits of my continent will be, I put bunkers at the coastline to deter amphibious assaults, or to have a chance against it if it happens.

Apparently the AI aircraft seems to be sufficiently shocked when they see AAA (even if the armour is not up-to-date) so that my empire is safe against aircraft raids with this ring.

I also usually try to shorten the coastline with my formers. Former time is not so much an issue when you have two or more formers per base in the 2x2 spacing ...

	26-08-2002 07:04									#10
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To each his/her own. Instead of all those units, I'd rather make planet busters and pb sub carriers.

Much more fun and destructive!

	26-08-2002 08:26									#11
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quote: Originally posted by frankychan To each his/her own. Instead of all those units, I'd rather make planet busters and pb sub carriers. Much more fun and destructive!

Sure that stuff is fun-- but what Vel proposed was a defensive barrier on the coast before the enemy would have amphibious abilities or air power. I sometimes do this with a few crawlers. Before those two abilities, even a crawler is impervious to attack if the attacker cannot get on land first

I have never gone so far as to ring a conmtinent with units-- I always figure its cheaper and better to have a few offensive boats to blast the enemy troop transports

	26-08-2002 11:10									#12
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On the offensive side, I'm just playing the first time with the marine detachment. But against Sven I also need lots of needlejets to protect all the ships I have against his marine detachment ability ... Anyway, it is nice of him to provide me with a large fleet . And all the captured units seem to be independent. I don't need one special ability for clean

One of the reasons for the ring around my country is that I find those aircraft raids highly annoying. I prefer not having to fight a battle. And for me as a builder, a battle I don't have to fight is a battle I have won.

	26-08-2002 17:30									#13
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Ships captured with marine are only independent if they are closer to an enemy base than one of your own when captured, so do your hunting in the enemies back yard Quite nice to capture a transport full of units, because then they'll all be clean too.

	26-08-2002 22:50									#14
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Blake,
In my current game I have a lot of independent ships caught from Sven one or two tiles away from a base I snagged from Miriam (who now is restricted to two bases at the other end of the world and still doesn't want to submit ) I still haven't discovered the three or four Nautilus bases two tiles away from my base which should be there according to your theory

	26-08-2002 23:30									#15
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Possibly the "Captured Base" status of the nearby bases means that they are not considered fully enough "yours" for the purpose of determining whether the shanghai'd units are independent or not.