22-08-2002 03:58									#1
	AI Cheating !! Enter the AD-FREE zone

I was navigating with one of mine ships exploring the world, then, to my stuned surprise, I saw one greek GALLEY in the middle of the OCEAN, pretty far away from the coast

Why AI can do that, if when I go with my galley to ocean square, it sink ?? It is so unfair ! and stinks.....

	22-08-2002 04:18									#2
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Sorry to disappoint you, but the AI doesn't cheat here. If the Greeks have the Great Lighthouse, there is a 50% chance of their galleys surviving in an ocean square. I have done the same thing with my galley, too.

Read Civilopedia first before whining about AI "cheating".

	22-08-2002 04:25									#3
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My dear lord, off course I know about Great Lighthouse... and I HAVE this Wonder !!!

So, any other idea ??

	22-08-2002 04:45									#4
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I think that it's been said before that this is one of the AI's 'cheats'.

	22-08-2002 04:46									#5
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This is just another sneaky way the AI cheats.

First of all, no galley should ever survive in the middle of an ocean with or without any tech or Wonder. Hell, their crews would never sail that far from land anyway, and if they did they'd have run out of food and water quickly.
So it is unrealistic nonsense, like so much in Civ 3.

BUT, I was once playing on the famous "Marla Map" of the world. I had realistic starting locations and was China; I had just reached caravels and was sending them up north along the coast and had reached the Bering Straight near Alaska.

LO AND BEHOLD! I ran right into a GERMAN GALLEY in an ocean tile. They did not have the Lighthouse (as if that should matter). I immediately obtained the German world map. . . and there was about five thousand miles of black space between where the galley was and the nearest other German- discovered area (near Iceland in the Atlantic Ocean). So the German galley simply TELEPORTED itself over thousands of miles of land and ice onto the northern Pacific - where there are often waves fifty feet high.

It's a cheat. And it sucks.

Firaxis has been told about this since December and they refuse to fix it.

Just another reason why I play Civ 3 less and less.

	22-08-2002 06:18									#6
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Ok, you got me on that one. It's an AI cheat then.

	22-08-2002 06:20									#7
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pfff, not this again !!!

AFAIK the AI is NOT cheating in this case. (same rules apply to both AI & humans )

Could you post a save-game?

	22-08-2002 07:59									#8
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* Sigh Again *

I was really hoping this was going to be a sarcastic thread . . .

Where were the Greeks in the tech tree? After Astronomy (or is it Magnetism?) everyone's galleys may safely travel in the ocean (though this fact is not stated in the Civilopedia).

This is one of those "AI Cheats!" that never dies, no matter that no one can post a saved game showing proof of the "cheat," and no matter that the lead programmer publicly stated that: (1) the AI doesn't cheat; and (2) if anything, the risky sea and ocean passages are actually a "cheat" in favor of the human because the AI will never cause its galley to end its turn in a sea or ocean square so long as the risk of sinking may occur, whereas the human player may elect to take the risk and dare to cross the seas, sometimes thereby reaping the reward.

Proclaiming an "AI Cheat" especially if yelling ("AI CHEATING" or "AI Cheat !!") generaly makes one look awfully foolish in the end -- a much better approach might be to share the puzzling information in a less hysterical manner ("AI Galley in Ocean?" sounds like a nice thread title). Just food for thought.

Catt

	22-08-2002 08:07									#9
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Right On, Catt

And as I have stated before, in more than one thread, the AI never cheats, though they do play by some different rules than humans do. Humans have the ultimate cheat - they can think and they can learn!

	22-08-2002 14:00									#10
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If the civ knows:

Astronomy: ANY ship may travel safely over sea tiles.

Magnetism OR Navigation: ANY ship may travel safely over ocean tiles.


The type of ship has NOTHING to do with probability of sinking.

	22-08-2002 14:16									#11
	Re: AI Cheating !! Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Krakatoa Why AI can do that, if when I go with my galley to ocean square, it sink ?? It is so unfair ! and stinks.....

So, Krakatoa, what techs did the "cheating" AI have? Is this just another case of Krakatoa blowing up for no good reason

	22-08-2002 16:27									#12
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the greeks does not have magnetism, maybe they have navigation.

So, greek galley cannot go to ocean, or can go and will risk to sink. When I dare go to ocean, I almost all the time and sinking, rarely dont. How can AI stay about 2 or 3+ turns on ocean without sink ?? Are greek more brave or what ??

But this is not so important, my strong navy will destroy every greek boat

	22-08-2002 16:33									#13
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I am not sure if the AI is cheating since the all gamerules apply to all. I am of one thing certain though, that I once tried to cross deep water with my galley and I did. I don't remember having the Lighthouse and although I highly doubt it since it's one of the wonders that I am not that fond of. I had the impression that there always was a possibility that a galley can survive a turn in the deep water! Am I wrong?

So long...

	22-08-2002 16:39									#14
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quote: Originally posted by The Pioneer I am not sure if the AI is cheating since the all gamerules apply to all. I am of one thing certain though, that I once tried to cross deep water with my galley and I did. I don't remember having the Lighthouse and although I highly doubt it since it's one of the wonders that I am not that fond of. I had the impression that there always was a possibility that a galley can survive a turn in the deep water! Am I wrong? So long...

a turn, yes, its possible but not adviseable...

the wierd is i found one galley about 3 or 4 turns away on the deep ocean, I never could do that, why they can? Most likely, in the first turn on ocean my galley sink... I will build 10 galleys and try it

	22-08-2002 18:11									#15
	Increase Your PM Length

On my games I've never found any gallery's in the middle of the ocean. I fact in my games they never seem to find the little islands

	22-08-2002 19:46									#16
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The Greeks dont need magnetism/navigation, AFAIK the rule applies to everyone once anyone has those techs. Personally, I think its a crock for galleys to cross ocean squares but the firaxians seem to disagree.

	22-08-2002 19:49									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Coracle This is just another sneaky way the AI cheats. First of all, no galley should ever survive in the middle of an ocean with or without any tech or Wonder. Hell, their crews would never sail that far from land anyway, and if they did they'd have run out of food and water quickly. So it is unrealistic nonsense, like so much in Civ 3. BUT, I was once playing on the famous "Marla Map" of the world. I had realistic starting locations and was China; I had just reached caravels and was sending them up north along the coast and had reached the Bering Straight near Alaska. LO AND BEHOLD! I ran right into a GERMAN GALLEY in an ocean tile. They did not have the Lighthouse (as if that should matter). I immediately obtained the German world map. . . and there was about five thousand miles of black space between where the galley was and the nearest other German- discovered area (near Iceland in the Atlantic Ocean). So the German galley simply TELEPORTED itself over thousands of miles of land and ice onto the northern Pacific - where there are often waves fifty feet high. It's a cheat. And it sucks. Firaxis has been told about this since December and they refuse to fix it. Just another reason why I play Civ 3 less and less.

For someone so bent upon proclaiming the AI cheats, you would substantially help your cause by posting evidence stronger than the anecdotal rememberance. You obviously have some feelings about some specific cheats (if these are cheats, then apparently they aren't sneaky enough to escape your notice), so you should have some good thoughts as to how to find these cheats. Or are you too convinced in your beliefs to subject them to any sort of meaningful scrutiny?

	22-08-2002 20:00									#18
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This point about the galleys in oceans after magnetism/navigation has come up before at least once before (in my thread ). Its not a well known change to the game from civ2 and the fact that its not in the civilopedia or well advertised means this topic will come up again and again.

EDIT: sorry it wasnt my thread see Catts link below

Last edited by SpencerH on 22-08-2002 at 21:23

	22-08-2002 20:22									#19
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

The Polynesians sailed all over the south pacific and then up to Hawaii on what were basically rafts - there's some pretty rough seas down there. And there is a limited, but controversial, amount of historical evidence that the Egyptians may have sailed across the atlantic to South America in the something close to galleys (can't remember what they were called). Not to mention the Vikings in their longboats...

Galleys in ocean tiles is fairly realistic IMO ... if you're willing to take the risk why not? I've had a couple of games where I managed to circle a standard sized map using a galley ... all in ocean tiles. But then I've also had games where I've lost a galley only a couple of tiles out from the coast.

Don't like the AI's ship being in the middle of the ocean? Sink it.

	22-08-2002 20:27									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

The viking ships were not galleys, but the points about Thor Heyerdals hypotheses of the Polynesian and Egyptian reed galleys are well taken.

	22-08-2002 20:55									#21
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The AI folows the rules (if you give automate to all units you can see it), The only cheats have to do with difficulty level (which are in the rules) and how the AI gets information, as the computer has to have all information and the AI is the computer so they have to set what the AI knows.
The AI can't see the map so it has to Know the map, the AI can't guess what you will accept so it has to Know what you can, the AI can't rember what you did last turn and it can't plan a sratagy so it has to know where your units are and where you are weakest, There are more like this I can't think of right now.
The AI also knows everything it can do and does it (pop rush when you start a war, how to trade tech, etc.) and it doesn't mis anything (can't forget to wake a unit, can't press space at the wrong time, etc.).

It could be that because the can't pick the best place to risk a ship crossing the ocean it knows the random seed, but I don't think so.

So to make the AI smarter it has to know less and make more mistakes.

Last edited by Level on 22-08-2002 at 21:01

	22-08-2002 21:12									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Krakatoa a turn, yes, its possible but not adviseable... the wierd is i found one galley about 3 or 4 turns away on the deep ocean, I never could do that, why they can? Most likely, in the first turn on ocean my galley sink... I will build 10 galleys and try it

Krakatoa - can you post a saved game?

Either you're misremembering or there is a bug in your game. See Soren Johnson's (lead AI programmer for Civ 3) comments regarding this topic in this thread.

	22-08-2002 21:20									#23
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by SpencerH The Greeks dont need magnetism/navigation, AFAIK the rule applies to everyone once anyone has those techs. Personally, I think its a crock for galleys to cross ocean squares but the firaxians seem to disagree.

Yes! This is what I've always thought... but I have seen the other way (a civ needs the tech to have its vessels influenced) mentioned in the forums so often that I've begun hesitating... AFAIK, it is much like with the Education. As soon as anyone invents it, it affects everyone (cancels the effect of GL, lets galleys cross sea/ocean tiles).

I also agree that Galleys should never be able to cross ocean, no matter what tech you have. Upgrade to Caravel first, then go out exploring the high seas...

	22-08-2002 21:29									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Catt Krakatoa - can you post a saved game?

Sorry, I din't save it
When I found the galley, I killed him and keep playing... only few moments later I realize the metter.

I will save when occurs again.

	22-08-2002 21:39									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Krakatoa I will save when occurs again.

May I also suggest that you reconsider ever starting threads concerning AI "cheating" unless you have a saved game to share for analysis by others (and particularly avoid starting threads with titles containg "CHEATING" or "Cheat !!!"). I have yet to see a saved game of alleged cheating that didn't eventually have a rational, understandable, within-game-rules explanation (there have been a couple of "bugs" which players mught consider cheats - the AI trading techs during a player's turn in v1.16 being the prime example, the so-called "Scared to Death Bug" discovered by cracker that some seem to consider an AI cheat being another).

Yelling "Cheat!" in a thread does a number of things, none of them good, some of which are: (1) makes the poster seem a bit hysterical and silly when the cheat is easily explained away; (2) contributes to the "urban myth" status of certain "known cheats" - AI galleys in oceans being a prime example; (3) sows general confusion about the game mechanics; (4) incites flame wars in the forum; and (5) invites the trolls to come out and play.

Catt

	22-08-2002 21:42									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Catt Yelling "Cheat!" in a thread does a number of things, none of them good, some of which are: (1) makes the poster seem a bit hysterical and silly when the cheat is easily explained away; (2) contributes to the "urban myth" status of certain "known cheats" - AI galleys in oceans being a prime example; (3) sows general confusion about the game mechanics; (4) incites flame wars in the forum; and (5) invites the trolls to come out and play. Catt

6) Brings Coracle at a fast gallop.

	22-08-2002 21:44									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Gastric ReFlux 6) Brings Coracle at a fast gallop.

I (diplomatically) listed that as point (5).

	22-08-2002 21:47									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Catt I (diplomatically) listed that as point (5).

Point taken. Aiming for the UN victory?

	22-08-2002 23:11									#29
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Hmmm, in my very first game I happened to be a separated
island civ (very separated), so had no choice, but to build swarms of galleys, and send them on the suicide missions in all directions. A few of them actually crossed about 10 tiles of ocean without sinking. That lead to massive consequences - my Great Library actually started working, and me quickly getting into the winning position. I don`t say I cheated, no