22-08-2002 06:25									#1
	Flawed tech tree = bad game flow Put an end to popups!

Why did Firaxis programmers create research rates with technology that allowed for new units that become obsolete before you can implement strategies with new types of units??

A few units that come to mind that become obsolete too quickly with a discovery that provides for a new unit:



Frigate (Ironclad becomes available too quickly)

Pikeman (Musketman becomes available too quickly)

Musketman (Rifleman becomes available too quickly)

I have to play test this yet to see how it will work, but with the following technologies, I am going to increase their research cost for human and computer players:

Gunpowder originally at 44; changed to 54

Steam Power originally at 120; changed to 130

Nationalism originally at 100; changed to 110

Increasing the research cost by only ten points does not sound much, but I think it might be a significant enough increase, given the 10 multiplier factor for the human player, and whatever multiplier factor is set for computer players.

In addition, I have made Industrialism the required advance for the Ironclad unit. Makes since, since even late 18th century early Ironclads were invented only after the Industrial Revolution began in Great Britain.
Plus, this gives the Frigate unit a longer life of utilization.

I also have made Industrialism the required advance for the Rifleman, which gives this particular technology a powerful incentive more than ever, to research.
So I increased Industrialization's research cost from 88 to 98.

What are opinions on this? If you think there might be a flaw somewhere in this logic, let me know, as my playtesting will take a bit of time before I reach these advances to find out how game flow is affected.

thanks

	22-08-2002 17:02									#2
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

First off, the +10 won't make much difference at all, a few turns.

Second, there are some flaws in the tech tree (the Age of Sail/Exploration is too short and the ironclad can come right after magnetism, especially for a scientific tribe), but these sound like you always going down the same path rather than an actual flaw in the tree. I usually explore the upper part of this tree (the optional branch that has Democracy) after getting Fuedalism, so gunpowder comes much later than Pikemen for me.

	22-08-2002 18:29									#3
	Get a bigger avatar today!

About ships:

Magnetism shouldn't play the role it has had since Civ 1. Magnetic minerals were known and used as compasses already before the great voyages of exploration, though he physical nature of magnetism wasn't understood until mid-19th century.

Other inventions, like improved carpentry techniques, clocks and telescopes were more important for developing the ships that made Europeans rulers of the world.

Ironclads hould be moved to a later tech. A steam engine isn't good enough to build an advanced warship like the Monitor.

	23-08-2002 08:19									#4
	Re: Flawed tech tree = bad game flow Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by MrFun Frigate (Ironclad becomes available too quickly)

There's one thing you can do to make Frigates more useful when Ironclads come on the scene. Increase movement rates for water squares in the editor, 1 for Coast, 2 for Sea, 3 for Ocean. Then give Frigates, and all other ocean going vessels, the "All Terrain as Roads" flag. This will mean the Ironclad will only be useful for local use, you'll still need Frigates for long hauls until the modern units comes along. Remember to adjust the movement rates, since one move will then equal 3 squares.

	23-08-2002 11:15									#5
	Get a bigger avatar today!

You can also make the Ironclad sink in Oceans.

It would make moree sense to have greater movement cost for coastal squares, because coastal waters are harder to navigate.

	23-08-2002 20:46									#6
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Optimizer You can also make the Ironclad sink in Oceans.

But that doesn't make any difference once you have Navigation, it can cross the ocean just like a Frigate. That's why I suggest the idea I gave. It works quite well at limiting the Ironclads, though it's still not fool proof. At least it will stick to the coast lines unless it can't find a path that way. Then it will take three times as long to cross the ocean as a Frigate.

	25-08-2002 08:29									#7
	Increase Your PM Length

Thanks for your suggestions, guys.

As you have already found out, I prefer a historically accurate game flow -- within reason -- without ruining the fun factor with LITERAL, or strict accuracy.

	25-08-2002 08:32									#8
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by WarpStorm First off, the +10 won't make much difference at all, a few turns. Second, there are some flaws in the tech tree (the Age of Sail/Exploration is too short and the ironclad can come right after magnetism, especially for a scientific tribe), but these sound like you always going down the same path rather than an actual flaw in the tree. I usually explore the upper part of this tree (the optional branch that has Democracy) after getting Fuedalism, so gunpowder comes much later than Pikemen for me.

But there is one problem with your research route; computer opponents will have dozens of Musketmen while you try to maximize the utility of Pikemen.

With my idea, (at least, I hope), the change made will be made more equal for the human player, and the computer players by making the research cost and prerequesites applicable to all players involved.