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yaroslav
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Madrid, Spain, Europe
Jun 2001
time: 06:21
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There is the new BETA version 2
Unzip the Civ2Dip.zip in your desktop and double-click on the Civ2Dip.jar
This must work 
Edited: Upgraded to BETA Version 2.1 (problems with BETA version 2.0 --- see below!)
 Attachment: civ2dip.zip
This has been downloaded 24 time(s).
Last edited by yaroslav on 25-08-2002 at 22:20
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Kramsib
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Father and protector of PROGRESSIVE GAMES, SANTANDER, Cantabria, España (Spain), Unión Europea (European Union)
Sep 2001
time: 06:21
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Ok let's go with the second test with the second Beta.
So, the first betatestgame will be with the classic and vastly known scenario about Rome, included with every single Civ II.
After checking the order, the first runs as the following:
- Celts (Computer)
- Romans (Human)
- Cartaghinians (Human)
- Macedonian Greeks (Computer)
- Egyptians (Computer)
- Seljucids (Human)
- Greeks and Allies (Computer)
As you can see, there are human players and computer players mixed, in order to test if there is any proplem in a PBEM mix.
So I play the first turn with the romans, pulsed Ctrl + N and saved the .net file.
Then, keeping Civ II active (in order to check for information about my future requests) I run the second Beta, it is only one file and that is very good  , but it woulb be better if the file was an .exe and not a strange .jar
Ok, I run the application, no problem, and select my language, Spanish, obviously, but is very curious, there are three options in the menu, one English and two Spanish, perhaps only a bug. I select Spanish, and then the problem dissapear, only two options are since now available, "English or Spanish".
Then I select the net file, I saved previously and then my current faction, the Romans. Although the application changed the messages into Spanish, the names of the Civilizations are still in English (perhaps because my MPGE is in English, and the application is reading the my net file).
Then I establish a password, and then I try to make a barter but when I select my target Civ (the next human Civ because there is no sense selecting no human players), I cannot continue with the following step, the utility does not do anything at all.
OH MY GOOD, WHAT'S THE PROBLEM? 
It has nothing to do with the Civ II activated nor with the language, perhaps with the location of the .jar file? I tried puting it with the previous beta, but nothing happened.
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Kramsib
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Father and protector of PROGRESSIVE GAMES, SANTANDER, Cantabria, España (Spain), Unión Europea (European Union)
Sep 2001
time: 06:21
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Ok, I continued with the test but I get stuck again.
So I ran the saved .net file with the application, and make the barter.
Note, the three language options are still there the first time (English, Spanish, Spanish, there is a spare Spanish there).
I have take a photo: (excuse me for the bad quality but we all now who is responsible).
As you can see, there is a little problem, there is a strange message near the "Maximo" title.
The "Tecnología que ofreces" title invades the camp next to it.
The Quit option, only works for those technologies which are at the top of the queue, and although there is no embassies, there is no sense on demanding those advances which we already own, for instance, The Republic. (Bronze Working is another example).
If I have a lot of advances I do not want to be comparing one by one trying to select those which I have not yet. Of course, I do not know which are the other's advances, I have no embassy, but the program should know what are mines and eliminate them from the list of demands.
After this, I saved the barter in a file, without extension (should I need an extension?).
Then I restart Civ II like the next player should do, and run the Roman's save file. Now I am Hannibal of the Carthaginians, and I want to see what offers have been made. So I run the application again. I select the roman's net file, select Hannibal, stablish the password, view barter, choose the roman's barter, and then, an error.
"OFERTA ANTICUADA" -Out of date offer- or something like that.
I thought it perhaps was a wronk .net file, so I saved the Carthaginian's turn in a new .net file (carthago.net), and then I run the application with that .net file, repit the proccess and the same answer.
"OFERTA ANTICUADA" -Out of date offer-.
It is a new bug or my own mistake? 
 Attachment: bugs.jpg
This has been downloaded 138 time(s).
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yaroslav
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Madrid, Spain, Europe
Jun 2001
time: 06:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Kramsib
Ok, I continued with the test but I get stuck again.
So I ran the saved .net file with the application, and make the barter.
Note, the three language options are still there the first time (English, Spanish, Spanish, there is a spare Spanish there).
I have take a photo: (excuse me for the bad quality but we all now who is responsible).
As you can see, there is a little problem, there is a strange message near the "Maximo" title.
The "Tecnología que ofreces" title invades the camp next to it.
The Quit option, only works for those technologies which are at the top of the queue, and although there is no embassies, there is no sense on demanding those advances which we already own, for instance, The Republic. (Bronze Working is another example).
If I have a lot of advances I do not want to be comparing one by one trying to select those which I have not yet. Of course, I do not know which are the other's advances, I have no embassy, but the program should know what are mines and eliminate them from the list of demands.
After this, I saved the barter in a file, without extension (should I need an extension?).
Then I restart Civ II like the next player should do, and run the Roman's save file. Now I am Hannibal of the Carthaginians, and I want to see what offers have been made. So I run the application again. I select the roman's net file, select Hannibal, stablish the password, view barter, choose the roman's barter, and then, an error.
"OFERTA ANTICUADA" -Out of date offer- or something like that.
I thought it perhaps was a wronk .net file, so I saved the Carthaginian's turn in a new .net file (carthago.net), and then I run the application with that .net file, repit the proccess and the same answer.
"OFERTA ANTICUADA" -Out of date offer-.
It is a new bug or my own mistake? |
Well, one thing and then, the next
1) The problems with the "three" languages is to be corrected. I don't know why it happen!
2) Máximo's problem... To be corrected
3) "Tecnologia que ofreces"... Well, I only test the utility on English
4) Your post says:
"If I have a lot of advances I do not want to be comparing one by one trying to select those which I have not yet. Of course, I do not know which are the other's advances, I have no embassy, but the program should know what are mines and eliminate them from the list of demands."
Ok, I'll add those features!
5) You must load the offer before load the roman file, as you do.
Now, I'll test it and correct those problems.
Thank you, again.
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Kramsib
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Father and protector of PROGRESSIVE GAMES, SANTANDER, Cantabria, España (Spain), Unión Europea (European Union)
Sep 2001
time: 06:21
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Hey Yaros, did you solve those things we were talking about by AIM? About offering diplomatic relations (declaring War, reputation problem, ...)?
I thought more deeply about allowing the program to run offers. I suggest you to allow the program to show only the legal offers, and ignore the illegal ones. But perhaps the demander wants those specific demands, and it is not interested on continue negotiating if his requests are not going to be enterely satisfied. Perhaps including a contra-offer option.
Example.
Romans offer, no gold, iron working and peace to Carthaginians,
and demand 100 gold, polytheism from them.
There is no embasies between them.
Imagine, the Carthaginians, only have 50 gold, the 100 gold demand is ilegal, so the program do the following:
a) Cancell the entire negotiation because of the illegal request.
b) Ignore the illegal request and show only the legal ones, in this case, Polytheism.
In option b), if Carthaginians accept the barter, they receive, Iron Working and peace by giving Polytheism. Ok, no problem. But perhaps the Romans considered those 100 Gold as an essential condition for negotiationing, in other words, if Carthaginians do not have 100 gold Romans will cancell the negotiation.
A solution for this problem and a good option for this, would be a conter-offer option which would allow a more interesting negotiation ("regateo").
Once the Carthaginans receive such an expensive demand, they could send a counter-proposal, "less money and you'll get it", which perhaps Romans should reconsider.
Another option could be, sending more than one offers to the same receiver, one with a money exchange, a second one with advances exchange and a third with treaties, so the receiver can say partially no to those parts of the demandings which he disagrees.
A third alternative could be, sending one offer but the program enables the receiver to accept or to reject some parts of the offer (Obviously, the offerer must choose an option previously, indicating the program it can treat his offer divided in parts).
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Kramsib
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Father and protector of PROGRESSIVE GAMES, SANTANDER, Cantabria, España (Spain), Unión Europea (European Union)
Sep 2001
time: 06:21
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I was thinking that, if Carthaginians reject the first offer and make an offer to the Romans, has the same effect than a Counter-offer option, avoiding programming.
Now in Spanish, to explain Yaros what I exactly mean.
Pues resulta, Yaros, que cuando el programa cancela la demanda por ser ilegal, se me ocurrió, bueno, pues que el programa deje ir las demandas legales, pero ¿qué pasa si al demandante no le conviene esto?, esto es, habrá veces en las que las ofertas sean rígidas, que sean tratadas como una unidad indivisible, "o aceptas esto o no hay más que hablar". Si el programa deja ir las legales, y el receptor las acepta, el demandante primero echará pestes por recibir menos de lo que pedía, sin posibilidad de haber cancelado su decisión.
De ese modo, caí en la cuenta de la posibilidad de las ofertas parciales y las contraproposiciones. Lo de las contraproposiciones es fácil, no hay que programar nada, el programa se adapta fácil, uno cancela la oferta que recibe y envía una nueva, básicamente igual a la anterior pero modificada (claro que quizá haya que tener mucha memoria o habrá que apuntar lo que la oferta traía, de modo que si el programa gestiona este tipo de actos sería la leche) en aquellos aspectos que uno considere. "Pues 100 de oro no tengo pero si quieres dos Falanges...".
Lo de las ofertas parciales es más difícil, primero, el que envía la demanda debe específicar que sus demandas se traten parcialmente, de modo que asuma que sus ofertas se traten de modo individual (que exista una pestaña donde se marque que las ofertas se traten de modo individualizado), esto quiere decir, que si yo ofrezco, 0 oros, Forja del Hierro y Paz, a cambio de 100 Oros y Politeismo, esto puede separarse en 3 negociaciones independientes. 1) Dame 100 oros a cambio de nada, aceptas o no,2) dame Politeismo a cambio de Forja del Hierro, y 3) te ofrezco la Paz a cambio de nada. De modo que el receptor pueda aceptar o rechazar las que le convengan o no, aceptar la 1 pero rechazar la 2, y así.
Problema: las ofertas cruzadas (oro por ciencia, unidades por oro, ...) . Solución, a) Enviar diferentes ofertas independientes al mismo receptor, o b) que el programa lo gestione. Con la primera opción tampoco hay que programar, uno envía sus ofertas individualizadas, y el receptor las trata por separado, acepta unas y rechaza otras. Claro que el engorro de tener que tratar varios archivos de demandas de varios jugadores es claro...
Visto desde otro punto de vista, con estos conceptos se evita (no de cuajo como que se corte la negociacion si hay algo ilegal) que un jugador vaya tanteando cuanto oro tiene el otro, a medida que recibe respuestas del computador (Si yo pido 100 oros y 1 tech, los 100 oros son ilegales, el programa sólo deja ir la petición legal de 1 tech, el otro recibe que sólo pido 1 tech aceptando, al ver que sólo recibo la tech y no los 100 oros, deduzco que el otro no tiene 100 oros).
uff, 
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23-08-2002 01:18
, Yaros, you are faster than those lazy Firaxians 
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