23-08-2002 03:58									#1
	World Map Question... Increase the size of your Attachments

I have quite a few games under my belt, and something I noticed a little bit ago has seemed to me more and more likely to be true.
Will the AI declare war on you if they don't have your world or territory map? Because every time I play I never give anyone my map, and I usually declare war first, and if I don't declare war first, they won't attack me. Is this just luck, or is the AI triggered to only declare war if they have your map?

	23-08-2002 05:19									#2
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In the early game, world maps are valuable, but usualy not the reason for war.

I think it's because you are either weaker or the civs in question are aggresive (germany).

	23-08-2002 07:56									#3
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Also because the computer tends to like you more if you cooperate. With any dealings with the AI, you giveing a little will go a long way.

	23-08-2002 15:01									#4
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given the claims that the AI cheats and knows the whole map anyway, it would seem like a good deal to sell it maps even for 1 gold...

	23-08-2002 15:19									#5
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If you are an aggressive player you normally have enough units to intimidate your neighbours into staying peaceful, map or no map. I usually only get invaded if I let my military lapse in an effort to build city improvements and ignore diplomacy to keep my neighbours content.

	23-08-2002 18:59									#6
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Well I never give the AI anything and therefore they declare war (but only if they are stronger than you otherwise they just bluff) this I've learned here in this forum. But do maps have such a high importance to declare war? I doubt it very much.

	23-08-2002 22:24									#7
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Cdinkle:

IMO you are correct. It seems that other civs often want to have my map before they declare war. More than once I've traded territory maps with another civ, only to have them declare war on me one or two turns later. That's not to say they wouldn't declare war anyway, but it seems they do more often after getting my map.

	23-08-2002 23:59									#8
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I just finished a game in which I never traded my maps. Ever. Only one AI ever sent a ship around my continent... a Greek caravel, and I don't think it made a full circuit.

But people attacked me. I put down one city on their continent, and immediately, two different civs sent stacks of troops straight for it. BAM! World War. Which was fine by me.

-Arrian

	23-08-2002 23:59									#9
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Don't give them your map, they'll use it to settle on "your" land.

	24-08-2002 00:00									#10
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The more you trade with the civs and give them what they demand, the less chance is that they'll attack you.

	24-08-2002 03:43									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Egyptian Cdinkle: IMO you are correct. It seems that other civs often want to have my map before they declare war. More than once I've traded territory maps with another civ, only to have them declare war on me one or two turns later. That's not to say they wouldn't declare war anyway, but it seems they do more often after getting my map.

Feels good to be correct.

	24-08-2002 04:33									#12
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I try not to ever giva my world map away, Once you do, then the AI will send settlers tramaling through your ground

	24-08-2002 06:43									#13
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Well, if the AI hasn't even found your empire, it wouldn't make sense for it to declare war on you, because it wouldn't know where to go to attack you. Although they presumably know where your capitol is if you establish an embassy with them or vice versa, just as you then know where theirs is.

Even if they do know where some of your cities are, having full knowledge of an enemy nation's geography is extremely useful when going to war. So it would make sense for them to prefer war with civs whose territory map they already have.

I guess I haven't really considered the pure military value of maps before. But I don't think I'll be forgetting it in the future. Thanks!

	24-08-2002 06:49									#14
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quote: Originally posted by TacticalGrace given the claims that the AI cheats and knows the whole map anyway, it would seem like a good deal to sell it maps even for 1 gold...

Why? Even if getting your map does nothing for the civ buying it, shouldn't you hold on to your map in the hopes of selling it for more in the future? AIs are often willing to pay quite a lot for maps, although they do seem to value their own more than mine, even if they are of similar size. And remember, once you sell your map to a civ, they can sell it to others, which means that you may not be able to sell it to other civs in the future, because they will already have it.

	24-08-2002 10:21									#15
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quote: Originally posted by JohnM2433 Why? Even if getting your map does nothing for the civ buying it, shouldn't you hold on to your map in the hopes of selling it for more in the future? AIs are often willing to pay quite a lot for maps, although they do seem to value their own more than mine, even if they are of similar size. And remember, once you sell your map to a civ, they can sell it to others, which means that you may not be able to sell it to other civs in the future, because they will already have it.

When your map is large (i.e., there is more to offer), it is worth more. As it gets stale (i.e., when everyone already has the information), it is worth less.

Once you sell it to one, YOU have the opportunity to sell it to the others NOW, before others share it. Just as with tech trading, you may find that its value diminishes as its knowledge becomes less exclusive.

	24-08-2002 22:07									#16
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quote: Originally posted by TacticalGrace given the claims that the AI cheats and knows the whole map anyway, it would seem like a good deal to sell it maps even for 1 gold...

I must confess, even if this was confirmed by a firaxian, I dought it actualy uses this knowlege. Since I don't give out world maps for any reason. This makes the AI expand a lot slower then when I used to trade maps.

	24-08-2002 23:10									#17
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quote: given the claims that the AI cheats and knows the whole map anyway, it would seem like a good deal to sell it maps even for 1 gold...

The AI does know the whole map but at the same time it doesn't know the whole map. It would be stupid for the programmers to write code that hides the map from the AI. The AI does know everything but doesn't use it all. The AI will still explore and do everything you do. Never sell your map unless you can get good money for it and only sell your map if you are going to sell it to everyone because if you don't everyone will have it next turn anyway.

	24-08-2002 23:37									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Sheik The AI does know the whole map but at the same time it doesn't know the whole map.

That is what I was thinking. They prevented the AI from actualy using this information by putting it into a [AL_GORE]Lock Box[/AL_GORE].


Damn I love C++ classes

	25-08-2002 04:55									#19
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The shroud is just a graphic put on top of the terrain graphic. The AI doesn't use the pictures to "see" things, so it does "know" the entire map. However, it is programmed to ignore this knowledge. The holes in this programming are what cause the AI to be able to cheat.

	25-08-2002 05:13									#20
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker The holes in this programming are what cause the AI to be able to cheat.

And we all know that the AI does this.

Well, atleast thats my excuse anyway...

	25-08-2002 06:30									#21
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker The holes in this programming are what cause the AI to be able to cheat.

Don't say the 'C' word!

	26-08-2002 19:58									#22
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If you lighten or remove the Fog of war PCX you can see the difference between land and water but nothing else so you still need to explore to see what kind it is.

	27-08-2002 04:56									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Level If you lighten or remove the Fog of war PCX you can see the difference between land and water but nothing else so you still need to explore to see what kind it is.

That might be usful for that late game huge (256x256), but I don't want to know even that much that early in the game.

	27-08-2002 08:16									#24
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The AI can't see the graphics so it has the same infomation you have when you modify the fog of war PCX so it still needs to explore.

	27-08-2002 21:21									#25
	Increase the size of your Attachments

OT: Level, clicking on "Crawler" in your sig took me to the Rocket Soldier thread. You may want to fix that...

Nice work on those units, though!