23-08-2002 06:36									#1
	Discussion - Joan has 159 lytons!!! Increase the size of your Attachments

With this much, she can possibly bribe someone to attack us.

I suspect she will bribe one of the following:
Americans - they dislike us
Aztec - at war already, so they are mobilized and need the cash
English - same as Aztec
Germans - they probably have a large army just waiting to attack somebody, and as our neighbor with munich in our clutches.... wouldn't you?

I suspect thay she may, if she is very diplomatic, get the greek army on her side. However, as she is neighbors with greece, I find this a less likely scenario.

So, if this comes about, what do we do?

One idea I had, as the persians like us and are making us kinda nervious marching all those archers around, can we bribe them to attack whomever until we can make peace with france?

Thoughts, comments, etc....

	23-08-2002 06:49									#2
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Are you sure she could bribe all the people on that list? Germany would be willing, I'm sure, but England and the Aztecs, while mobilized, are already having to fight Hoplites on one front. And while America may hate us, I would think they would realize we're more than a match for them.

But, in such a scenario, I'd be for signing an alliance with Persia - and ASAP, too, since the sooner we sign it, the sooner we could cancel it and make peace with whoever France goaded into war.

	23-08-2002 06:56									#3
	Re: Discussion - Joan has 159 lytons!!! Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by GodKing Joan has 159 lytons!!!

They're not Lytons in France, they refer to their coinage as "Frog disks", and the larger denomination of coins are called "Flat Joans"........

	23-08-2002 08:13									#4
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Well whatever we do, we don't want to bring another army in to declare war on France. What if they take some of the French cities? We want those for Apolytonia?

It'd be really craptastic if we bribed Persia to help us and then they got some of France, b/c then we'd be sandwiched between Persia. Not too good.

I suppose if the French do bribe an ally, which they may not, then we could try to bring someone in to help. But it should be someone who is only in a position to attack France's ally, not France herself.

oh, and let's hope they dont bribe in one of the nations already at war. can you say "world war"?

	23-08-2002 08:23									#5
	Got spare money?

Well maybe what we could do is offer them a peace treaty (after taking everything but their Capital), and that they also give us all their gold, then we attack and capture Paris. It's cheap, but its fast money.

	23-08-2002 08:30									#6
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b/c i know you only just signed up, cdinkle, i'll give you the benefit of the doubt ;-) there's basically no way we can take all their cities, we don't have that strength. the goal is to take just a few of the cities, like 4-5, the easternmost ones. and as soon as we start the war, Paris and Orleans are the first targets. otherwise your idea would've been a possibility.

	23-08-2002 08:45									#7
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If the french bring someone else into the war, then we should make peace with france asap after we obtain our goals then concentrate on the 2nd foe.

The nightmare situation would be something like this though:
france pays germany to attack us
germany pays persia to attack us
persia pays greece to attack us
etc


Its not likely though if we make the french war as concise as possible. Get what we want, then make peace for whatever we can get.


Also if they did pay germany to attack us, id suggest paying the aztecs to attack the germans, then taking munich and anything else they have we want.

	23-08-2002 09:17									#8
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In the event that France does bribe someone into the war, we will respond by bribing a neighbor of our new enemy into the war with the new guy.

We will race to meet our objectives and make peace with France ASAP.

We will then focus on keeping out the new guy and/or making peace.

The only concern is this: If we bribe an enemy into war and then make peace with our mutual victim, it tends to ruin our relations with our new ally. Therefore, we would bribe the ally into a war with the new enemy ... hopefully someone far away so that by the time they get to us, they're already war weary. And by that time everyone is happy to end the war. Little relations damage.

Enemies with Republics would be nice.

--Togas

	23-08-2002 14:59									#9
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I suspect France is going to ally with Persia against us, as their price would be the lowest.
America won't agree to go to war with us. Greece, Aztecs and England will demand at least 300-400 gold to sign an alliance against us. Germany is a republic so they won't be so keen to go to war, and so their price will be steep.
Persia, however, already has units within our territory. They are a despotism like us so they need not worry about war weariness and if you ask me, they've been drooling over our territory ever since we met them (since they are blocked in all other directions by either sea or a strong AI civ). They'll be cheap and France is going to ask for their help.

	23-08-2002 15:44									#10
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I thought Persia had a RoP agreement with us (?) Xerxes wouldn't betray us like that, would he?

Anyway France couldn't bribe Persia for only 159 frog disks if we still have this RoP as I think...

	23-08-2002 16:03									#11
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Xerxes is a double-crossing bastard, only second to Bismarck. RoPs mean nothing to him.
Anyway, France can pay Persia gpt for their help.

	23-08-2002 16:22									#12
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

So I guess we should strengthen our borders and especially Ubergrosk, in order to secure our iron.

We have presently sent all our attacking force to the west and I fear that the two most famous "double-crossing bastards" are a heavy threat.

	23-08-2002 16:27									#13
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hi ,


, it seems that that money is going to be ours very soon , ....

a large part when we got some cities , the rest we just simply demand

have a nice day

	23-08-2002 16:36									#14
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Panag is right: if we hit quick and hard, Joan's money won't be a problem.

Still we have to worry about Otto and Xerxes.

I've just seen that the "Machiavelli institute : analysis of the Greek Wars" thread is precisely speaking oh that right now...

	23-08-2002 16:55									#15
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Not necessarily. Joan can offer Persia or Germany gpt for an alliance, and they most likely will once Paris and Orleans will be ours.

	23-08-2002 18:23									#16
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If I had to guess, persia will not side with france. their RoP will make them our allies. We can sick them on whomever she does bribe. Hopefully it isn't the germans, as that could be a nightmair. Anybody else I wouldn't give to much concern with at first.

We do also have 2-3 warriors in cities with barracks. We can upgrade them at the start of the war, and keep them as reserve near loveshack. It will take them 5 turns to get anywhere in the empire, but it is what we have now. Also, if it is germany, we take munich fast and then sue for peace.

	23-08-2002 18:38									#17
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I recommend that we upgrade all 3 warriors and then move them to BHQ or a bit up north so they'll be able to respond to threats faster.

	23-08-2002 19:19									#18
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Otto is the biggest threat IMO. Though, I believe that he will be jumping in on the Greek wars for one side or the other. Greece is already about to send units through his territory to get at England. He either has a ROP with them (and is likely to add an aliance) or is going to be REAL pissed at them for it and likely to declare war on them.

	23-08-2002 19:29									#19
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Germany has a RoP with Greece. It's likely that Germany will join Greece's side in the war. If they do, great news! One less enemy to worry about for the next 20 turns.

	23-08-2002 19:35									#20
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With any luck, Persia will declare war on Germany, joining England's side (must somehow guard against persia taking Munich in this case) and we will be free to go slap around France then sit back and watch the fun, picking which side to join near the end of the beating.

	23-08-2002 19:50									#21
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For Germany, the aim of war could be to open an access on both oceans :
- North with the cities of Xochicalco, Tlacopan and Malinda, checking in the same move further Azteks expansion toward the Ivory Coast
- East with the cities of Tula (iron), Calixtlahuaca and Liverpool or Sardis.

This would result in a powerful situation.

Last edited by DAVOUT on 23-08-2002 at 20:24

	23-08-2002 20:03									#22
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Doesn't matter if Persia takes Munich, we'll take it culturally anyway. In fact if Persia takes Munich it'll be much easier to flip it because Munich is farther from Persepolis than from Berlin and because Persia has less total culture than Germany.

	23-08-2002 20:33									#23
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I wonder though... might we not capture/destroy a large part of France's money in the opening turn of the war? If we catch Paris and Orleans right off, we may capture some gold plus decrease their gpt a lot. Especially since Paris is their leading city. They may not be able to bribe anyone in on the war, and if they do it's going to be the cheapest one, IMO: Persia. But because of the RoP maybe not... I'm not sure France is going to get any help.

	23-08-2002 20:39									#24
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Problem is, it will take us three turns to conquer Paris from the moment we declare war, giving Joan two turns to recruit an ally. Seeing that there are 8 swordsmen approaching Paris she might panic and sign an alliance before we get a chance to conquer Paris, and then when we do conquer Paris we'll get very little money out of it, if any, because they've given all or most of their money to another AI in return for a declaration of war against us.

	23-08-2002 20:57									#25
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

What about a sneak attack : Joan would be less likely to bribe anyone in on the war (not having the time to do it) ?

Or maybe we could declare war just before attacking, once we are in her border (I can't remember if the consequences are the same than a sneak attack)

	23-08-2002 21:04									#26
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We could use the sneaky strategy that was on civfanatics a while back with artillery. That is found a temporary city in their territory in order to "borrow" their roads for our slow troops to get to their city in one turn. The strategy was for artillery, but there's no reason it wouldn't work for swordsman too.

I doubt its worth the expenditure of a settler though. I mean is that 2 turns likely to make that much of a difference?


EDIT: Actually it wouldn't work, I forgot it works for artillery cause they have the range of 2. It'd take our swordsman 1 turn to reach the temporary city, 1 to move through it, and 1 to reach the foreign city, then it'd be the next turn before they could attack. Oh well, just disregard that, its definately not worth it to gain 1 turn

Last edited by wervdon on 23-08-2002 at 21:12

	23-08-2002 21:29									#27
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Max -

NO SNEAK ATTACK.

Our diplomatic relations cannot handle the repurcussions. And all of our research is aquired through diplomicy at this time.

We are on the border. We opened an embassy the turn before so we sneaked a peak at paris. Only 2 spears. We will declair war prior to entering their territory to avoid the diplomatic repurcussions. Paris should fall quickly. When we take over it should only have a pop of 2 or 3 (it is at 6 now, it will pop rush a sword or spear, and will loose one when we march in).

Orleans we will take with a pop of 1 (it has culture, so after they pop rush there, it will not disapear when we take it).

Our stratagy will depend on 2 factors at this point. The french will at this time pay someone to attack us on another front. Second is what shape our forces are in after the attack. We might just sue for peace at this point if continuing will be a problem. Many variables to account for, so we will have to play it by ear.

	23-08-2002 22:55									#28
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OK, so we'll act & see, if I understand.
After all a pragmatic policy is not so bad...

	23-08-2002 23:01									#29
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I think there's a consensus against sneak attacks.
However that doesn't mean we won't appreciate any more suggestions from Mr. Wervdon who can teach us some of what the Phoenaticans have learned.

	23-08-2002 23:17									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Max What about a sneak attack : Joan would be less likely to bribe anyone in on the war (not having the time to do it) ? Or maybe we could declare war just before attacking, once we are in her border (I can't remember if the consequences are the same than a sneak attack)

hi ,

hang-on , a sneak attack shall hurt our rep , ...

we should only upgrade the three warriors when needed , not before , only when danger is around , and we should have them there where ther is a barracks ,....

as for the allies of the species , well no need to worry yet about that , ...

BUT we should watch those persians , ......

have a nice day