31-08-2002 03:35									#31
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The ability to change government 'at will' (admittedly with the penalty of several lost moves production) seems to me unrealistic. Perhaps on the first discovery of Monarchy or Republic this should be an option, but most changes in government are the product of unrest and the outcome is unpredictable.

Also most government systems are self perpetuating and very rarely will they voluntarily change to a new system / philosophy. Even here in the UK the transition to full democracy from a parliament that was run by the landed aristocracy took a long time and was not achieved without riots and civil unrest.

I suggest a high level of unrest should result in rebellion (civil war) or government change and that the results of goverment change should be unpredictable, though some civilisatiosn should have more chance of getting certain types of government than others. And of course some types of government would only become available as new concepts of govenrment are developed.

	17-09-2002 21:35									#32
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Good idea... Such nations as Armenians and Poles with hungreds of biigger and smaller uprisings and resurrections
will appreciate it...

	17-09-2002 23:28									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Heresson Good idea... Such nations as Armenians and Poles with hungreds of biigger and smaller uprisings and resurrections will appreciate it...

And countries that had to suffer the breakdown of their empires by uprisings and insurrections won't! (England, Russia, Spain, Turkey...)

	18-09-2002 08:01									#34
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Well, I think it could be a good idea if the cities don't automatically "flip" back to the old culture, but rather maybe some sort of rebel units pop up and try to recapture lost territory. Then the cities could maybe have some resistors crop up or something... it would be something that could be squashed if you have the military with you.

But, actually, I do think it would be kind of cool to restore autonomy to conquered civilizations. I mean, I was playing a game once that was really loads of fun for the simple aspect of the diplomacy. It was a very intricate system, but then there were only two civilizations left on the continent, and the last portion of the game was rather dull by comparison.

Or maybe have the ability to set up some sort of a federation of states or something. I dunno. It's not likely to be in PTW, so it's rather futile to be arguing about it.

	18-09-2002 10:36									#35
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Culture flipping, gameplay-wise, SUX. I dont care about the reality of it.

I once lost 4 armies of 4 units (3 of marines, 1 of tanks) as well as a bloody lot of units, probably about 60 to 70 units (all my bomber fleet was there, that alone makes for about 20 units) just because some size 33 babylonian city "flipped" miraculously, in the middle of the war, just a few turns after being conquered. The entire babylonian army was being grinded by my invasion force, and then some local librarians vanished all my tons and tons of military hardware. NO WAY!

It was sooooo frustrating that I closed the game, opened windows explorer, opened the savegames folder, deleted the game good bye, started over. For the record, I won, I had already launched the spaceship at that point.

After said event I learned to turn on autosave so I could load and "abandon" (disband/delete) any city that will flip the next turn. In this way I have disbanded cities that had 2 and even 3 wonders without remorse.

	18-09-2002 11:35									#36
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Build more culture improvements. If the city flipped with so many units, your total culture was probably insignificant (compared with the babylonian's).
And don't put bombers in your newly conquered cities, especially if it's a big city from a culturally rich civ.

You lose units and cities this way, I win them. Learn to handle it.

	18-09-2002 16:57									#37
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My opinion: Bring back civil wars! I loved the concept of civil wars in Civ II, although I rarely experienced one. It would also bring back the importance of capturing an enemy capital, since that could trigger a civil war.
As far as conquered civilizations are concerned, I think they should only have a chance of revolting against their conquerors shortly after (e.g. within 20 turns) they have been crushed, and only if they were culturally stronger.
In case of a civil war as meant above, part of the enemy cities should flip to the civ that took the capital, and the other half should remain loyal to the enemy civ. In case of a revolt of a conquered and vanished civ, some cities (not all!) should flip to that original civ, thereby bringing it back to live.

Another interesting idea is to make civil wars possible even WITHOUT foreign intervention. For example, when war weariness has reached a certain critical level, or happiness is extremely low. In this case, cities would 'flip' to a NEW civilization, previously not present in the game.

In any case, the current system of Culture Flipping should be reworked so that garrisons would never vanish into thin air (they should be damaged and pushed out of the city instead), and that a lower number of occupying units would be enough to prevent a CF.

	18-09-2002 17:18									#38
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The defeated civs can respawn, or the cities can culture flip (which I think are revolutions).

	18-09-2002 17:23									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Hagbart The defeated civs can respawn, or the cities can culture flip (which I think are revolutions).

Yeah, but respawning civs always appear in a different area on the map, and defeated civs never flip back into existence. Also, civil wars are not present in the game.

	18-09-2002 18:58									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius You lose units and cities this way, I win them. Learn to handle it.

Nope we don't have to . In PTW culture flip is an option to deactivate. Ahh thanks to the Civ-god.

	18-09-2002 19:31									#41
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If that's your choice, fine.
Too bad we won't meet in a MP game.

Au revoir!

	19-09-2002 17:20									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius Build more culture improvements. If the city flipped with so many units, your total culture was probably insignificant (compared with the babylonian's). And don't put bombers in your newly conquered cities, especially if it's a big city from a culturally rich civ. You lose units and cities this way, I win them. Learn to handle it.

Boy.... I WAS INVADING THE BABS WITH THAT FORCE. I WAS AT WAR AND I WAS GOING FROM CITY TO CITY, THAT WAS JUST A SHORT REPAIR BREAK BECAUSE THE CITY HAD BARRACKS!

I HAD PUT ALL THOSE UNITS THERE BECAUSE I WAS GOING TO PILLAGE 2 RESOURCES FROM THAT CITY WHICH COULD NOT BE REACHED FROM ANYWHERE ELSE.

quote: If that's your choice, fine. Too bad we won't meet in a MP game.

I think you wont meet many people in an MP game if you think like that .

	19-09-2002 18:18									#43
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quote: Originally posted by XOR Boy.... I WAS INVADING THE BABS WITH THAT FORCE. I WAS AT WAR AND I WAS GOING FROM CITY TO CITY, THAT WAS JUST A SHORT REPAIR BREAK BECAUSE THE CITY HAD BARRACKS! I HAD PUT ALL THOSE UNITS THERE BECAUSE I WAS GOING TO PILLAGE 2 RESOURCES FROM THAT CITY WHICH COULD NOT BE REACHED FROM ANYWHERE ELSE.

What has the whole thing to do whith what I've said? Build a strong culture (before the war) and you won't see flippings too often.
I took at least 20 cities yesterday from the aztecs and none of them flipped. I was culturally stronger.
I also don't take big cities; I bombard them to oblivion.

Also don't put many units in conquered cities, especially in big cities from culturally strong civs. If the city flips, you take it back.

quote: I think you wont meet many people in an MP game if you think like that .

Like what? That culture is an important part of the game and you have to take care of it ? You build marketplaces to have money, right? So build libraries to have culture. It is that simple.

I know I won't win in MP, because I'm not a warmongerer and that's a huge disadvantage. With all the whinings about culture flipping, civ is still more a wargame than anything else.

PS Please don't shout.

	19-09-2002 23:06									#44
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Isn't it possible to remove culture flipping now? I thought that was an option in 1.29f or maybe I read that that will be available in PtW. I can't remember, but I could have sworn that I read that somewhere.

	20-09-2002 01:07									#45
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quote: Also don't put many units in conquered cities, especially in big cities from culturally strong civs. If the city flips, you take it back.

The bombers were there because I just put them there that turn to bombard 2 strategic resources that could only be reached from there.

The armies and ground units were there because almost all of my units were (and all of my armies) damaged and the city was the only captured city in the continent that had barracks.

It's absurd and unrealistic to have such inmense military force to just "vanish" because of how old the babylonian temples and libraries are. If my units were "kicked out" and left outside the city, next to it it would have been retaken easily. The military force in that city was enough to conquer the entire Bab continent. That's just a good example of how lame and poorly implemented the cultural flipping currently is.

quote: I also don't take big cities; I bombard them to oblivion.

I dont shrink large cities, I raze them for slaves or take them and use them (like, turning everyone into taxman or sci, or simply produce something I can use), I only shrink them if I wont be able to capture them within the next few turns.

quote: That culture is an important part of the game and you have to take care of it ?

Culture=Ok
Cultural flipping=SUX BAD.
Will disable=cultural flipping.

You will only play with cultuflip on? I think you will be in a very small minority .

	20-09-2002 09:40									#46
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Sorry if this is off topic:

Why is the edit button not used in this forum, now double /tripple prost is very common (there are often less then 15min between them). In many other forums iw seen this is not allowed.

You can have 2 or more quotes in the same post, no need to make a new one with every quote.

	20-09-2002 09:47									#47
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quote: Originally posted by XOR You will only play with cultuflip on? I think you will be in a very small minority .

As long as I will find 7 people to play with, it's OK.
Actually, it's a relief for me that warmongerers will disable CF; at least I know that I won't meet many.

	21-09-2002 09:52									#48
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quote: There should be no culture fliping. It is historicaly inacurate. Never in the history of mankind has cultural awe developed in a change of political control.A backward civilization may admire another's cultural achievments and adopt the other's way of life, but it is impropable that their cities switch allegiance

well texas was practically handed down by rebels of lone star republic, they yearned to be assimilated to US and US just merged them few years after the whole mutiny thing of Texas and thats how we got texas (AP American taken eons ago so if im wrong dont flame me)

btw about whole revolution thing, how bout the complete opp side of spectrum. Colonizing another civ? You can colonize land for resource and make civ cough up gpt, rop and all the other humilating thing next to simply gobbling up empire right now but it would be cool if it had a "make the civ ur b!+ch" kinda option. opp of embargo should definitely be in too open force trade or something. though i cant really think how this would work in game play right now. maybe ill come up with somehting. im tired perhaps u guys can discuss among urself and hopefully i opend up whole can of worms to talk abotu or something.