24-08-2002 01:21									#1
	Discussion: RoP with America Increase the size of your Attachments

I suggest that we look into signing a RoP with America next turn. Allow me to analyze the immediate pros and cons:

- Pros:
* America is willing to pay 16 gold for a RoP. Right now gold is very important to our civilization - it serves a lot in trades and soon we'll be able to use it for paid labor as well.

- Cons:
* I think we've established by now that sneak attacking an AI is prohibited because of the devastating diplomatic effects that follow. Therefore, if we sign a RoP with America now we cannot attack them during the next 20 turns (after which we can cancel the RoP peacefully and attack with full might).
However, it does not seem likely that we'll be ready to attack America in less than 20 turns. The war with France will take at least 5 turns. Then we'll have to keep our troops in the new towns to quell resistors and serve as temporary garrisons until we can put spearmen there. Then there's the matter of actually moving our forces to America, which could take several more turns. All in all, this really isn't a problem.

I'd like to hear people's opinion about this. Give me some input, voice your opinion, add to the list of pros and cons and so on.

	24-08-2002 02:14									#2
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

As long as we don't look to violate it in the future, I have no objections. Is 16 gp that important at this time? No (IMO), but them securing that area against the germans can be if the french bribe them to attack us durring our little expansion.

	24-08-2002 02:29									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Look at it that way: we get gold for nothing. The Americans are probably not going to use this RoP anyway. Effectively, there are no cons to signing this RoP.
16 gold may not be a real treasure, but if it's free for the taking then why not take it?

	24-08-2002 02:36									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I was going to oppose this, on the basis of hoping that we would be able to strike the Americans before 20 turns had passed. But that looks unrealistic, given the distance our forces would have to march. So the plan sounds good.
Still, we must hit the Yanks as soon as possible. They are so weak, and the territory they hold (esp. Chicago) is so attractive, one of the other civs is going to pounce soon. As soon as we bring the French to terms, we need to move an invasion force north ASAP. It might even be worth trying to get an ROP from Greece, so that we could send a body of swordsmen directly north to Chicago from Paris.

	24-08-2002 02:41									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Only 16 gold? For risking a possible (although improbable) need to postpone a war that should be gotten over with asap after france, it is not worth it.

	24-08-2002 02:42									#6
	Remove this text

I'd be against it. Sixteen gold just isn't enough to warrent it, and the Yanks are going to be trying to expand to anyplace they can -- they're the smallest civ I think, so giving them a "pass through our terratory for free" card may cause trouble.

Furthermore, we may want to attack them once this war is over, and if we do that and decide to use whatever attack force we have left over, then waiting (even another ten turns or so) will just give the Americans time to bulk up and perhaps get to pikemen or something that might have more affect against our spearmen.

-- adaMada

	24-08-2002 05:54									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

16 GP to see yankees run everywhere on our land ? Well I didn't know we were that short of money: for me it would be prostitution !!!!!!!

	24-08-2002 11:50									#8
	Suffering from ads?

I was going to agree, because we're basically making money for nothing, but something hindered me : signing this RoP will make us lose flexibility.
It's possible (although far from sure) our war against the French is a stunning succes, and lets enough troops alive to move on immediately to America. Postponing the war because of this, even of a mere 5 turns, will make us lose some money (and lose time before connecting to incense). Plus, it will be boring.

	24-08-2002 15:26									#9
	Inflate your Upload Space

We shouldn't fear that the yanks set up colonies in holes within our territory because they have other places to expand to which are closer to their capital. We shouldn't worry that they'll send military units either because we can surely kick their butts.
However, adaMada, Spiffor and others raised an important point: loss of flexibility. In the unlikely event that we have to postpone our war with France (I say unlikely because the odds of us not being able to conquer at least Paris and Orleans are nearly insignificant) we will not be able to attack America immediately and thus lose precious time.

So to sum up, it's a bet. We either bet 16 gold that we won't attack America during the next 20 turns because we'll be too preoccupied in the war or we don't.
I remind you that our troops will have to conquer French cities, quell resistors, act as temporary garrisons and eventually travel all the way to America's borders. That's a lot of turns.
Furthermore, if our invasion is stopped after Paris and Orleans we would still have to wait some time until Joan agrees to accept our envoys and surrender.
Basically we're betting against the odds of the success of the French campaign.

	24-08-2002 17:40									#10
	Got spare money?

Spiffor - your post sums up my position pretty well. France will either go quickly, or not at all, and then we should take America as soon as we judge feasible so we can eplore other options - be they further wars or internal development. Selling our ability to move things at our speed for a mere 16 gold is not the way to go.

	26-08-2002 22:58									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Hmm. Better check which side America will choose in the Great War (as I call it). If it's our side (unlikely though), we might accept.

	26-08-2002 23:20									#12
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I was going to agree, because we're basically making money for nothing, but something hindered me : signing this RoP will make us lose flexibility. It's possible (although far from sure) our war against the French is a stunning succes, and lets enough troops alive to move on immediately to America. Postponing the war because of this, even of a mere 5 turns, will make us lose some money (and lose time before connecting to incense). Plus, it will be boring.

............................................MWIA
............................................GhengisFarb

Just signing my "John Hancock" on the endorsement of Spiffor's post.

I think we'll be all over America before twenty turns have passed.

	26-08-2002 23:59									#13
	Increase Your PM Length

I don't see how 16 gold would make even the slightest difference either way. Don't we make 21 gpt? It's useless.

	27-08-2002 00:56									#14
	Inflate your Upload Space

25 actually. And yes, it's rather useless now.