24-08-2002 16:12									#1
	What's with the damn AI??? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I think I'm eating my words here, but that's ok, live and learn right.

So after the third SP tournament, I figure the AI is a pushover and start a new land based game with Impossible setting. I get anihilated...
So I drop it back to Very Hard, and keep getting my butt kicked!!!

So I tried to study what the AI was doing a little more... now I was giving my closest civ my map or money nearly every turn, and they still went from respectful, to despising me, to methodically taking my cities... while I'm still giving them gifts! What the...

I had everything maxed out too. There was NOTHING I left out that could be altered to give me a better advantage. I didn't even go near their borders.

(For those of you that did the third tournament, I'm using the same mods. For the others, it's simply the stock game with the patch, Super Apolyton pack, and Goodmod.)

So I don't know what to do... I can't even remember what my questions was...

Has anyone else been able to defeat the AI with these mods and at this difficutly???

I'm just a bit lost with it all... it's making me lose motivation... ah I dunno...

Comments anyone...?

	24-08-2002 16:58									#2
	Re: What's with the damn AI??? Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Shadow Has anyone else been able to defeat the AI with these mods and at this difficutly???

Yeah, sure, it's not all *that* hard (challenging, but far from impossible). The AI will hate and attack you when you're weak, so don't be weak. Maintaining a strong army is very, very important, especially in the early game. And remember the golden rule of warfare: attack is still the best defence.

	24-08-2002 17:23									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Yeah the AI does not like you, because it shares with you the same continent, actual I don't like my AI neighbours either, because they are stealing my land, my room for expansion. So I think they should become pissed of me too, if we are just sitting on the same continent. Of course you are free to disable frenzy, to modify the ShareContinetRegardCost in the GM1_Diplomacy.txt. But actual very hard should have a meaning. BTW it is always great if the AI can anhililate a human for a modmaker. Especial if he still remembers the AI is so weak whinning from the start of CTP2.

-Martin

	24-08-2002 21:27									#4
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Dont give all your money every turn, give about 200/300 gold (early game) each time you give and only give them something if theyre getting slightly pissed at you. Exchange maps early on with them after giving them a gold gift if theyre an angry type of AI. Increase the gold amount as the game progresses.

Give them your map every 40 turns or so with nothing in return, maybe longer than 40. But dont do it if you dont want to make peace with them in the long run, youll just make them stronger.

The only real way to secure peace with them though, is to simply have a much stronger military. Although you can make strong friendships with diplomatic minded civs just with gold and map exchanges.

	25-08-2002 00:00									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

i never give over 100 gold to the AI on any given turn yo

and my diplomacy is still tight

has anyone tried declaring war and asking for peace the same turn? it should work positively is they dislake u

	25-08-2002 02:52									#6
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Here's what I do:

- give map on first contact with any civ.
- give map about every second turn after that.
- give 100 gold about every 5 turns or so to whichever civ is a threat.
- make a B-line for the tech that gives me the best military might.

And... I'm getting my butt whipped!
Sometimes I get the Ramayana quick so I can put all settings settings on max and still retain full happiness.
And I don't build anything that's not military except the odd settler.

[shrug]

I dunno, I'll get there.

	27-08-2002 03:18									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

What's interesting (and the modders will correct me if I am wrong) is that the AI is determine to attack, no matter what, despite having a no-trespass agreement. And I think the mandatory enforcement of the trespass, that makes them disappear, combined with the AI's tendency to hang around outside a city for few turns before mounting an attack, is the only reason the AI doesn't ignore it completely and sack more cities. Many times have I have seen large stacks of AI units advance on me just to "disappear" before they can reach a city to attack. And the few turns they're on my land, I am constantly seeing the red circle indicating (I believe) that they are trying to pillage my land but can't. Even then, I have a couple of occasions where it will agree to the non-trespass and will attack units on our mutual borders anyway.

I find though, if they don't "dislike me" on the diplomatic screen, however, they won't try to violate the non-trespass at all. But I'm never willing to try more than a few turns of giving gold or maps to try to get a civ to like me. If it cost too much effort or gold, sooner or later we're going to war.

	27-08-2002 19:04									#8
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Rule of thumb (in Cradle, at least)

The AI is a backstabbing weasel. You can maintain a peaceful alliance, but the AI will break it - the only question is when...

They will ignore trespassing agreements, especially if their military is stronger than yours.

But humans have done that throughout history, so it is a reflection of human nature.

Beat them into submission.

Make alliances with civs that are off-continent, and once you are a lot stronger than a rival civ, you generally can threaten them into peace.

But not always...

Last edited by hexagonian on 28-08-2002 at 00:32

	27-08-2002 21:28									#9
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by TheArsenal What's interesting (and the modders will correct me if I am wrong) is that the AI is determine to attack, no matter what, despite having a no-trespass agreement. And I think the mandatory enforcement of the trespass, that makes them disappear, combined with the AI's tendency to hang around outside a city for few turns before mounting an attack, is the only reason the AI doesn't ignore it completely and sack more cities. Many times have I have seen large stacks of AI units advance on me just to "disappear" before they can reach a city to attack. And the few turns they're on my land, I am constantly seeing the red circle indicating (I believe) that they are trying to pillage my land but can't. Even then, I have a couple of occasions where it will agree to the non-trespass and will attack units on our mutual borders anyway. I find though, if they don't "dislike me" on the diplomatic screen, however, they won't try to violate the non-trespass at all. But I'm never willing to try more than a few turns of giving gold or maps to try to get a civ to like me. If it cost too much effort or gold, sooner or later we're going to war.

The AIs tresspass frequently with non-tresspass agreements, they might as well since I'm always stomping through their turf usually with clerics, corporates and lawyers, but sometimes with troops.

I felt that they AI's reluctance to go straight for an attack on my cities, which is what I do to it, was a major weakness. They focused too much on plundering. So I changed the setting and made it so that their primary interest is in sacking cities.

Now its a real challange.

	28-08-2002 00:18									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by HuangShang has anyone tried declaring war and asking for peace the same turn? it should work positively is they dislake u

I like that idea HuangShang That happens TO me but I have never tried to do that to an AI. They usually dislike me right after I negotiate a cease-fire, but I tend to be a poor diplomat as the AIs rarely ever like me.

Shadow – I build as many troops as possible with full stacks of 12 guarding each city that (I think) could be attacked. If I get 3 or 4 AIs attacking me early, then I end up losing cities even when I have full stacks in them, city walls, and ballista towers. I go for geometry as fast as possible because once you can bombard the AI then you will have a great advantage. The AI tends to make even worse decisions when you start bombarding it. Another thing that I tried in my current game is I put together a “strike force” of knights and mounted archers (later, it was infantryman and cannons) and I attacked Hebrew cities immediately after they attacked me. Of course, they attacked without any provocation from me. The Israeli invasion troops turned around and returned to their territory once I started hitting their cities. I kept avoiding their troops with my strike force for many turns while I built better defenses and a stronger strike team. Plus I got several Hebrew cities that were not well defended. They eventually trapped my troops in their territory and destroyed them, but it bought me valuable time and it really seemed to confuse the AI. Just keep trying different things and you may find something that works!

	28-08-2002 00:26									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by TheArsenal Many times have I have seen large stacks of AI units advance on me just to "disappear" before they can reach a city to attack. And the few turns they're on my land, I am constantly seeing the red circle indicating (I believe) that they are trying to pillage my land but can't.

I have seen that happen quite often too and I wondered what was going on. I agree with you that the AI really wants to keep the no trespass agreement even though it tries to pillage my tile, which results in disappearing troops. It could be two separate parts of the AI’s programming that happen to conflict with each other. It is funny to see them suddenly disappear. But I have also seen AIs pillage my tiles even though we had a no trespass agreement, so I assumed such an AI did not really want to keep the agreement and we go to war.

	28-08-2002 01:01									#12
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by ETB I have seen that happen quite often too and I wondered what was going on. I agree with you that the AI really wants to keep the no trespass agreement even though it tries to pillage my tile, which results in disappearing troops. It could be two separate parts of the AI’s programming that happen to conflict with each other. It is funny to see them suddenly disappear. But I have also seen AIs pillage my tiles even though we had a no trespass agreement, so I assumed such an AI did not really want to keep the agreement and we go to war.

Yeah I gave to the retreat goal a high bonus to the base priority if the army is treaspassing, I didn't give such a negative bonus to the pillage goal, so if the AI respect the no trespass agreement then you can avoid war if you stay in your cities until you have a mighty army. If not you have a problem. By the way nice to hear that the AI respects the no trespass agreement sometimes. So I guess Dale's withdraw script might not be needed anymore, but just in case of doubt...

-Martin