25-08-2002 00:43									#1
	Should Ironclads be faster than Frigates? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Is there any naval historian here who can tell which ship should be faster - an Ironclad or a Frigate? Right now they both have got a movement rate of 4.

I'm thinking of adding a Steam Frigate, too. Should it be a lot faster?

	25-08-2002 01:08									#2
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From several knowledgable posts I've read, Ironclads should never be allowed on the open ocean, that's not what they were designed for. So what I've done in my game is take advantage of the "All Terrain As Roads" flag for ocean vessels. I've given Coast squares 1 movement cost, Sea is 2, and Ocean is 3. Any ships that come around after Magnetism get "All Terrain..." while the earlier ones don't. At least that insures the Frigate doesn't become obsolete when the Ironclad arrives shortly afterwards.

	25-08-2002 23:44									#3
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gee, that sure would kill the usefulness of early ships if i can only move them one or two squares only...

-Mellian

	26-08-2002 00:00									#4
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Certain sailing ships, Clippers for example, were very fast, cruising at 15-18 knots. Most other types ran in the 10-12 knot range. The early steam powers ships had the advantage of being able to go fast in any direction, just not the ones indicated by the wind and your sail rigging. However, they were much more expensive to operate (fuel for one) and until reliable high speed steam engines were developed, sail was the prefered mode for most cargo. Remember, there were still sail-driven cargo ships operating in WW1.

	26-08-2002 05:31									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Mellian gee, that sure would kill the usefulness of early ships if i can only move them one or two squares only... -Mellian

No, it would just mean they only travel in coastal squares, which is where they should be sailing in the first place.

	27-08-2002 03:26									#6
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I think people forget that single units in this game represent many types of units. Frigates represent all sailing warships of the 16-19th century, from frigates to Man of War and Ships of the Line. In the same way, ironclads are not only representatve of shallow draft ironclad gunboats, such as those used in the civil war, but also of any predreadnaught ships that plied the worlds waters from 1860's to 1900's, such as the ships that fought in 1866 between Italian and Austrian Fleets, or the battlefleets of the Spanish American War, of the ships at Tsushima and Port Arthur. I think the ironclads should, in the regular game, have a slightly greater speed, to account not for the fact that they could actualy move faster, but that they could cover more ground, since they might not sail asd fast, but they can make the same speed over time with the fuel available, which is not true of sailing fleets.

	27-08-2002 10:11									#7
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But from a gameplay perspective, giving them more speed would make Frigates pretty much useless to build. You might as well just wait awhile and build Ironclads. Limiting their movement would make the sailing ship more valuable for a longer period.

	27-08-2002 13:28									#8
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Looking at the playability/fun factor, rather than the purely historicxal aspect, I think Willems idea sounds great.

	28-08-2002 00:36									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Willem But from a gameplay perspective, giving them more speed would make Frigates pretty much useless to build. You might as well just wait awhile and build Ironclads. Limiting their movement would make the sailing ship more valuable for a longer period.

Agreed - but a better way is Player1's idea, make them come with Industrialisation instead of Steam Power. I use this in my personal mod, along with Ironclads of 5 MP and oil-powered ships of 6 MP.

	30-08-2002 09:33									#10
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Here's an alternative idea. I don't like micromanagement so I do what I can to reduce it.

I give all ships 5 movement points so that they call all move together with stack movement and go to orders. Very convenient! Especially when the invasion point is on the other side of the world, I don't want to babysit the ships every turn. Destroyers provide sonar protection, aircraft carriers take care of AA, and battleships take any damage to the column all automatically. The transports are safely tucked under all this.

Exceptions to this are subs and ships without engines of course. Only for modern ships which is when I conduct most of my wars.