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Locutus
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ACS CTP1/2 Manager & Civ4 Co-Manager
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Hengelo, The Netherlands
Nov 1999
time: 06:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Dale
- Units |
Infinite, although it only supports 200 unit sprites (above that, you'll need to recycle).
quote:
- City types (like CityMod adds city types) |
AFAIK infinite, but I wouldn't be surprised if there was a limit on the number of sprites here as well (but AFAIK we haven't found it yet).
quote:
- Buildings
- Wonders |
64 each
We haven't found a limit yet, there's no reason to assume there is one.
Not quite infinite, but a lot (according to Ben).
4 per terrain type. Again, a limit on the number of sprites might also exist.
We haven't found a limit yet, there's no reason to assume there is one.
No clue, you'd have to ask IW or someone. That is, when it comes to graphics. When reusing graphics, it's probably infinite again.
quote:
Any others I may have missed.  |
Civilizations: 63 (should be 64, but that's buggy).
Feats of Wonder: as far as we know infinite, although at some point you'll run out of meaningfull ones.
Since you work in IT, I won't bother to explain what 'infinte' means in computerland 
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Martin Gühmann
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Berlin, Germany
Mar 2001
time: 06:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Dale
BTW Locutus:
Doesn't "infinite" mean something like 64,536 (or something very close to it?)
And as usual for computers, -32,000 to +32,000. |
For tile improvement graphics that is the theoretical limit, that is also true for terrain graphics, even if the CTP2 format will only support 253 different terrain types, but such a tile file won't be compartible with the default game.
For the sprites 200 different city sprites and 200 different good sprites can the game use at the same, presuming you don't hack the ctp2.exe, probably this is also true for effect sprites, and maybe for projectile sprites if the game use them.
-Martin
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Dale
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Sir! Why do you keep clicking on me?
Dec 2000
time: 15:21
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*sigh* Okay Ben, that's fair enough. I really honestly didn't think I could hide for too much longer. I tried to space questions out over the last few weeks, but obviously Dave's smarter than the average bear.
First draft, code started being written last night.
quote:
////////////////////////////////////////
// //
// History of Mankind! - A CTP2 MOD //
// //
// By Dale Kent //
// //
// Concept incepted 20th August 2002 //
// //
////////////////////////////////////////
/////////////////////
Design Documentation:
/////////////////////
General:
--------
- This MOD is to be a complete rewrite of the general CTP2 settings.
- It will use as its base: Original CTP2 settings
- This MOD will represent history from 8000 BC to 2000 (10000 years).
- The time hops will be less:
Epoche 1 8000BC - 3000BC: 20 year turns (250 turns)
Epoche 2 3000BC - 0AD: 10 year turns (300 turns)
Epoche 3 0AD - 1500AD: 5 year turns (300 turns)
Epoche 4 1500AD - 2000AD: 1 year turns (500 turns)
This makes a total of 4 epoches, and 1350 turns of gameplay.
- Epoches will have specific goals for humans:
Epoche 1: Survival and establishment (Pre-History)
Epoche 2: Meeting the neighbors (Anchient)
Epoche 3: The quest for Empire (Medieval)
Epoche 4: Civilisation and Global ambition (Modern)
Individual MODs that will be used:
----------------------------------
- CityCapture
- DiploPhotos
- Ultra-gigantic maps (though not as big as what Apolyton Pack had)
- VisibleWonders
- NaturalWonders
- CityExpansion
- CityMod
- UnitUpdater
- GoodMod (for the goods)
- Some of the current AI cheat MODs (TileImpsForAI, FortsForAI, PWCheatForAI)
- Some new scripts that will be written for this MOD:
AgroBastard - Script to enhance the attack of the AI
GreedyBastard - Script to enhance the economics of the the AI
SmartBastard - Script to enhance the science of the AI
GrovelBastard - Script to enhance the diplomacy of the AI
PanicBastard - Script to enhance the defense of the AI
WetBastard - script to enhance the navy of the AI
SwoopingBastard - script to enhance the air useage of the AI
- Other new stuff that I'm going to add in:
More city sprites (on top of CityMod) like the Civ3 types
New units (EG. chariot)
Ages of Mankind:
----------------
Epoche 1:
- Stone
- Bronze
Epoche 2:
- Iron
- Philosophy
Epoche 3:
- Medieval
- Renaiscance
Epoche 4:
- Discovery
- Industrial
- Imperialism
- Modern
/////////////
New Concepts:
/////////////
Colonisation:
-------------
Colonisation by settler will no longer be available until Epoche 4. Before Epoche 4, colonisation will only be able to occur by a new method for CTP2. As you move your units around the map, you discover and uncover the map and its features. When a favourable location has been found, then settlement of that area will occur automatically. After that, the settlement will grow as normal for CTP2. During Epoche 4, the settler unit will be available to be built, but colonisation will also occur automatically under the above circumstances as well. Areas that influence favourable conditions:
- Military presence +pos
- Fortification +pos
- Enemy presence -neg
- River +pos
- Nearby beach +pos
- Good +pos
- Trade post +pos
- Another settlement -neg
Military Maintenance:
---------------------
No longer will there be the original military maintenance of CTP2. A new concept first pitched by myself in July 2002 will make an appearance. Military maintenance will still be based on how many units you have in the field, but on the following scale (to be finalised):
0 - 25: 1 PW per unit.
26 - 75: 2 PW per unit.
76 - 150: 3 PW per unit.
151 - 300: 4 PW per unit.
301 - XXX: 5 PW per unit.
This means if you have:
20 units: 20 = PW maintenance per turn.
40 units: 25 + 15*2 = 55 PW maintenance per turn.
80 units: 25 + 100 + 5*3 = 140 PW maintenance per turn.
150 units: 25 + 100 + 225 = 350 PW maintenance per turn.
200 units: 25 + 100 + 225 + 50*4 = 550 PW maintenance per turn.
500 units: 25 + 100 + 225 + 600 + 200*5 = 1950 PW maintenance per turn.
I anticipate this to cause problems for the human later in the game when the Civ is very spread out, and the cost of maintaining those armies (I like to call it beauracracy) will create weaknesses in the humans defense. Consequently, the AI should be able to take advantage of these weaknesses.
I am also throwing around the idea that any unit outside of the Civ's borders gets hit by double-maintenance (cost of shipping supplies to that area).
Military Units:
---------------
Military units will no longer be different units for each science jump. To the player, they will receive one unit of each type (scout/land/mobile/ranged/air/sea) and with progressive science advances, the stats of these units will improve. EG: Epoche 1, you will be able to build a Scout, Warrior, Mounted Warrior, Slinger. While discovering advances, instead of getting new units for each discovery, you're units will receive upgrades. If you research Copper Smelting, then your warrior's defense will increase (bronze armour). When you advance to the next Epoche's template, you will need to upgrade your units.
In underlying programming terms, a new unit will actually have to be used for this jump (CTP2 doesn't support changing unit template stats), but this will be an invisible upgrade which is free. The Epoche template upgrade will be performed by Peter's UnitUpgrade script.
Government Policies:
--------------------
In order to accomodate for the concept of colonisation, government policies will be introduced. Thes policies will affect how the script for colonisation runs. At this point I am thinking of implementing the following policies:
- Fast colonisation land (every second pop-growth point to colonisation in radius from capital)
- Normal colonisation land (every fourth pop-growth point to colonisation in radius from capital)
- Slow colonisation land (every sixth pop-growth point to colonisation in radius from capital)
- Fast colonisation sea (every second pop-growth point to colonisation near coast)
- Normal colonisation sea (every fourth pop-growth point to colonisation near coast)
- Slow colonisation sea (every sixth pop-growth point to colonisation near coast)
////////////////////
Tentative Tech Tree:
////////////////////
- 8000BC: Farming
- 8000BC: Mud bricks
- 8000BC: Thread
- 7000BC: Raw copper tools (50 turns)
- 6500BC: Pottery (25 turns)
- 5800BC: Cloth
- 4400BC: Loom (105 turns)
- 3800BC: Smelted copper (30 turns)
- 3000BC: Wooden wheels
- 3000BC: Paper
- 3000BC: Lever
- 2781BC: Egyptian calender
- 2500BC: Byblos boats
- 2000BC: Skull surgery
- 1750BC: Early astronomy (supports calender)
- 1750BC: Number system
- 1500BC: Iron working
- 1400BC: Water clock
- 1100BC: War galley (trireme)
- 1000BC: Abacus
- 850BC: Glazed pottery
- 800BC: Primative steel
- 650BC: Coinage
- 570BC: The story of creation
- 550BC: The humours identified |
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hexagonian
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Gnawing on your mind...
Jun 1999
time: 23:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Dale
*sigh* Okay Ben, that's fair enough. I really honestly didn't think I could hide for too much longer. I tried to space questions out over the last few weeks, but obviously Dave's smarter than the average bear.
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Wellllllllllll, I was smart enough to figure out how to Mod CTP2, so I guess I can put 2 and 2 together... Ben said nothing either...
Anyhow, welcome back.
Looks good - a few questions
quote:
Originally posted by Dale
Colonisation:
-------------
Colonisation by settler will no longer be available until Epoche 4. Before Epoche 4, colonisation will only be able to occur by a new method for CTP2. As you move your units around the map, you discover and uncover the map and its features. When a favourable location has been found, then settlement of that area will occur automatically. After that, the settlement will grow as normal for CTP2. During Epoche 4, the settler unit will be available to be built, but colonisation will also occur automatically under the above circumstances as well. Areas that influence favourable conditions:
- Military presence +pos
- Fortification +pos
- Enemy presence -neg
- River +pos
- Nearby beach +pos
- Good +pos
- Trade post +pos
- Another settlement -neg
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Sounds like this will help the AI to establish a good network of cities - provided that the settings are high enough to prompt to AI to aggresively explore. Is it first come, first shot at the lands then?
quote:
Originally posted by Dale
No longer will there be the original military maintenance of CTP2. A new concept first pitched by myself in July 2002 will make an appearance. Military maintenance will still be based on how many units you have in the field, but on the following scale (to be finalised):
0 - 25: 1 PW per unit.
26 - 75: 2 PW per unit.
76 - 150: 3 PW per unit.
151 - 300: 4 PW per unit.
301 - XXX: 5 PW per unit.
This means if you have:
20 units: 20 = PW maintenance per turn.
40 units: 25 + 15*2 = 55 PW maintenance per turn.
80 units: 25 + 100 + 5*3 = 140 PW maintenance per turn.
150 units: 25 + 100 + 225 = 350 PW maintenance per turn.
200 units: 25 + 100 + 225 + 50*4 = 550 PW maintenance per turn.
500 units: 25 + 100 + 225 + 600 + 200*5 = 1950 PW maintenance per turn.
I anticipate this to cause problems for the human later in the game when the Civ is very spread out, and the cost of maintaining those armies (I like to call it beauracracy) will create weaknesses in the humans defense. Consequently, the AI should be able to take advantage of these weaknesses.
I am also throwing around the idea that any unit outside of the Civ's borders gets hit by double-maintenance (cost of shipping supplies to that area).
|
I would guess that this would make upkeep easier in the later game. Currently, the CTP2 setup usually is 10% of unit cost, so once your units pass the 500 production cost level (per unit), you will start to break even on upkeep between the systems. (I know that a player generally has lower level units as part of his armies, so the maintenance costs would average out lower than 5 per unit, but that gap would close quickly due to upgrades and replacement of lost units due to warfare.
As you get to the higher costs (say averaging 1,200 production per unit to build) you would be only paying 5 production for upkeep per unit as opposed to 12 production per unit in the default game.
A lot will depend on how you work the production settings though.
Maintaining armies in enemy territories should be expensive as you are planning. This is great!!!
quote:
Originally posted by Dale
Military Units:
---------------
Military units will no longer be different units for each science jump. To the player, they will receive one unit of each type (scout/land/mobile/ranged/air/sea) and with progressive science advances, the stats of these units will improve. EG: Epoche 1, you will be able to build a Scout, Warrior, Mounted Warrior, Slinger. While discovering advances, instead of getting new units for each discovery, you're units will receive upgrades. If you research Copper Smelting, then your warrior's defense will increase (bronze armour). When you advance to the next Epoche's template, you will need to upgrade your units.
In underlying programming terms, a new unit will actually have to be used for this jump (CTP2 doesn't support changing unit template stats), but this will be an invisible upgrade which is free. The Epoche template upgrade will be performed by Peter's UnitUpgrade script.
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Are you planning on using a color code system for the tgas? I can provide you with tgas for different levels of specific units, based on the current available CTP1/CTP2 units that are available.
The one problem is that you will not be able to tell the strength of the units you are fighting (Is that a low- or high-level warrior facing me?) But actually, that would make the game more interesting (a level of uncertainty is always good) and make the need to maintain an eye on where other civs are at in tech even more important.
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ahenobarb
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quote:
Originally posted by Dale
I anticipate this to cause problems for the human later in the game when the Civ is very spread out, and the cost of maintaining those armies (I like to call it beauracracy) will create weaknesses in the humans defense. Consequently, the AI should be able to take advantage of these weaknesses.
I am also throwing around the idea that any unit outside of the Civ's borders gets hit by double-maintenance (cost of shipping supplies to that area).
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How about adding triple cost for more advanced mechanized units (cost of fuel and maintenance)? The logistics of modern mechanised armies are much more difficult than those invovled in warfare from previous eras. In the old days it was mostly getting food and ammo (arrows and swords or bullets and guns) to them, sometimes not even the food, if they plundered or lived off the land in remote areas.
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Dale
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Sir! Why do you keep clicking on me?
Dec 2000
time: 15:21
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quote:
Originally posted by hexagonian
Wellllllllllll, I was smart enough to figure out how to Mod CTP2, so I guess I can put 2 and 2 together... Ben said nothing either...
Anyhow, welcome back.
|
 I knew I couldn't stay out of modding for too long.
quote:
Looks good - a few questions
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Shoot away....
quote:
Sounds like this will help the AI to establish a good network of cities - provided that the settings are high enough to prompt to AI to aggresively explore. Is it first come, first shot at the lands then?
|
Yep, first in, best dressed. One thing I see as a problem for the AI is city placement. From my experiments so far with the colonisation script, just the first draft of the script has improved it. Unfortunately, there's no way to tell if a player has explored or not a square. So I updated the city vision range. *shrug* It still plays OK so far. Couple that with "speedy units" (ala WAW) and it'll recompensate itself.
quote:
I would guess that this would make upkeep easier in the later game. Currently, the CTP2 setup usually is 10% of unit cost, so once your units pass the 500 production cost level (per unit), you will start to break even on upkeep between the systems. (I know that a player generally has lower level units as part of his armies, so the maintenance costs would average out lower than 5 per unit, but that gap would close quickly due to upgrades and replacement of lost units due to warfare.
As you get to the higher costs (say averaging 1,200 production per unit to build) you would be only paying 5 production for upkeep per unit as opposed to 12 production per unit in the default game.
A lot will depend on how you work the production settings though.
Maintaining armies in enemy territories should be expensive as you are planning. This is great!!!
|
I'd already decided last night for double-maintenance in enemy territory. As for the maintenance costs, I did think of that last night and just came on a solution. How about the original table, just each level multiplyed by Epoche? See below:
quote:
Military Maintenance:
---------------------
No longer will there be the original military maintenance of CTP2. A new concept first pitched by myself in July 2002 will
make an appearance. Military maintenance will still be based on how many units you have in the field, but on the following
scale (to be finalised):
0 - 25: 1 PW per unit * Epoche.
26 - 75: 2 PW per unit * Epoche.
76 - 150: 3 PW per unit * Epoche.
151 - 300: 4 PW per unit * Epoche.
301 - XXX: 5 PW per unit * Epoche.
This means if you have in Epoche 1:
20 units: 20 = 20 PW maintenance per turn.
40 units: 25 + 15*2 = 55 PW maintenance per turn.
80 units: 25 + 100 + 5*3 = 140 PW maintenance per turn.
150 units: 25 + 100 + 225 = 350 PW maintenance per turn.
200 units: 25 + 100 + 225 + 50*4 = 550 PW maintenance per turn.
500 units: 25 + 100 + 225 + 600 + 200*5 = 1950 PW maintenance per turn.
This means if you have in Epoche 3:
20 units: (20) * 3 = 60 PW maintenance per turn.
40 units: (25 + 15*2) * 3 = 165 PW maintenance per turn.
80 units: (25 + 100 + 5*3) * 3 = 420 PW maintenance per turn.
150 units: (25 + 100 + 225) * 3 = 1050 PW maintenance per turn.
200 units: (25 + 100 + 225 + 50*4) * 3 = 1650 PW maintenance per turn.
500 units: (25 + 100 + 225 + 600 + 200*5) * 3 = 5850 PW maintenance per turn.
I anticipate this to cause problems for the human later in the game when the Civ is very spread out, and the cost of
maintaining those armies (I like to call it beauracracy) will create weaknesses in the humans defense. Consequently, the AI
should be able to take advantage of these weaknesses.
Any unit outside of the Civ's borders gets hit by double-maintenance (cost of shipping supplies to that area).
|
As you can see, the maintenance costs skyrocket each Epoche.
quote:
Are you planning on using a color code system for the tgas? I can provide you with tgas for different levels of specific units, based on the current available CTP1/CTP2 units that are available.
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I will be including different coloured graphics for specific unit types. EG: For muskateer: Red - infantry. Blue - conquistador.
quote:
The one problem is that you will not be able to tell the strength of the units you are fighting (Is that a low- or high-level warrior facing me?) But actually, that would make the game more interesting (a level of uncertainty is always good) and make the need to maintain an eye on where other civs are at in tech even more important. |
I don't see a problem in this. When armies faced each other, they didn't know about new tactics. Did the Poms/Polish/French REALLY know how Blitzkrieg worked in WW2 when the Germans invaded Poland? No. It's all part of the surprise I'd say. 
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hexagonian
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Gnawing on your mind...
Jun 1999
time: 23:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Dale
Yep, first in, best dressed. One thing I see as a problem for the AI is city placement. From my experiments so far with the colonisation script, just the first draft of the script has improved it. Unfortunately, there's no way to tell if a player has explored or not a square. So I updated the city vision range. *shrug* It still plays OK so far. Couple that with "speedy units" (ala WAW) and it'll recompensate itself.
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Have you seen the same type of AI city expansion that you were able to pull off in your experiment in WAW?
quote:
Originally posted by Dale
I'd already decided last night for double-maintenance in enemy territory. As for the maintenance costs, I did think of that last night and just came on a solution. How about the original table, just each level multiplyed by Epoche? See below: As you can see, the maintenance costs skyrocket each Epoche.
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Looks like in Epoch 3 this would be the base breakdown (approx)
20 units - 3 support per
40 units - 4 support per
80 units - 5 support per
150 units - 7 support per
200 units - 8 support per
500 units - 12 support per
This is not including double maintenance for units in enemy territory either. The bottom line is if you make offensive warfare more expensive than defensive warfare, you simulate a historical fact. Related to this is that there are settings in govern.txt that allow you to adjust support coefficients, so you can give those numbers even more importance. (The double maintenance costs alone could really skyrocket under certain governments - making those governments VERY impractical for an aggressive war.
Question - is this system applied to the AI? If so, you probably will have to SLIC into the AI the need to jump to a different government if it finds itself in a offensive war. The AI is hard-scripted to move from government to government, and it does not have the flexability to decide which is the best government to be in at a particular moment. (One of the reasons why the governments are progressive in CTP2)
quote:
Originally posted by Dale
I will be including different coloured graphics for specific unit types. EG: For muskateer: Red - infantry. Blue - conquistador.
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Let me know if you want them done - I have all the files on my system to do this easily.
quote:
Originally posted by Dale
I don't see a problem in this. When armies faced each other, they didn't know about new tactics. Did the Poms/Polish/French REALLY know how Blitzkrieg worked in WW2 when the Germans invaded Poland? No. It's all part of the surprise I'd say. |
Why give the human player any advantage at all?????
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Dale
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Sir! Why do you keep clicking on me?
Dec 2000
time: 15:21
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quote:
Originally posted by hexagonian
Have you seen the same type of AI city expansion that you were able to pull off in your experiment in WAW?
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I can't exactly say anything on colonisation yet, I still don't have the complete code written. I'm got to finalise what exactly in a cell influences (+ or -) colonisation. What'll happen is when a city pop-growth gets grabbed for colonisation, it will search in a radius from that city to a distance between 5 & 7 (3 circles) scoring each cell. The cell with the highest score wins. As for speed of colonisation, that's determined by the government policy for colonisation encouragement. The higher the encouragement, the more cities you have with less pop. The less encouragement, the less cities you have with higher pops. You'll be able to change this during the game. EG: You start on an island. At the start you put on high encouragement and fill your island with cities. You then change encouragement to none, causing no colonisation.
Just thought of an idea:
- If gov policy is to encourage colonisation, and the city cannot find a cell to colonise (surrounded by cities/water), you get the option to return it to home city.
- A new tile improve useable outside borders like fort, which creates a "Colonisation Point"? If you have a CP specified, there's a good chance that a pop-growth from anywhere will settle there before the normal search. This will get over the problem of not being able to island-hop in my original design.
quote:
Looks like in Epoch 3 this would be the base breakdown (approx)
20 units - 3 support per
40 units - 4 support per
80 units - 5 support per
150 units - 7 support per
200 units - 8 support per
500 units - 12 support per
This is not including double maintenance for units in enemy territory either. The bottom line is if you make offensive warfare more expensive than defensive warfare, you simulate a historical fact. Related to this is that there are settings in govern.txt that allow you to adjust support coefficients, so you can give those numbers even more importance. (The double maintenance costs alone could really skyrocket under certain governments - making those governments VERY impractical for an aggressive war.
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And vice-versa:
Expensive for Republic/Democracy/V-Democracy.
Cheaper for Monarchy/Facism/Communism.
quote:
Question - is this system applied to the AI? If so, you probably will have to SLIC into the AI the need to jump to a different government if it finds itself in a offensive war. The AI is hard-scripted to move from government to government, and it does not have the flexability to decide which is the best government to be in at a particular moment. (One of the reasons why the governments are progressive in CTP2)
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If we implement this, we'll have to decrease the anarchy time. We can't have an AI jumping govs all the time, not when you could you lose 2-5 turns per change to anarchy for science and stuff. Any disagreements on this?
quote:
Let me know if you want them done - I have all the files on my system to do this easily.
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At this point, I've got what I need. I'll let you know if something comes up though.
quote:
Why give the human player any advantage at all????? |
Exactly! 
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26-08-2002 07:01
Sounds immense.
It shouldn't be better in tile improvement process ( e.g. from mine to adv mine or from net to fisheries ) to pay only the difference between and not the full cost in terms of PW??
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