26-08-2002 20:40									#1
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What do you, (This thread is aimed at Americans), think Baseball needs to redeem itself?

Personally i don't watch the sport, but it's still interesting. (IO mean the battle between Managers and Players here)

1. Salary Caps
2. Abolition of the Player's Union or at least a massive loss of it's powers.

	26-08-2002 20:42									#2
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Shove broad drug testing down the Unions throat with extremely stiff penalties for the people caught.

	26-08-2002 20:46									#3
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They strike again, they can get ****ed, thats my opinion. Baseball in its purest form is a great game......however, like most pro sports these days, its been perverted by money.

They walk out, I walk out...for good. Never will come back. Only a fool would take a slap in the face and come back for more. And thats what baseball has been doing to its fans.

They deserve to play games in empty stadiums. They don't deserve fans.

Most make more in three games played than the average American makes in a year. Isn't it time we brought these kooks back to reality?

	26-08-2002 20:48									#4
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Fan strikes have been tried before without any success.

	26-08-2002 20:51									#5
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If they go on strike this time, I hope the owners lock them out until the union is busted. Even if it takes a few years. Players averaging 2.4 million claiming they'll strike to protect the future monetary care of their families. What a load of bull. It makes me sick.

(not that I have a lot of love for the moronic owners, but it is time for them to win one, for once)

Rich

	26-08-2002 20:53									#6
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Thats because most "fans" have no resolve and are weak minded.

A true fan of the game would see how corrupted things have become and do their part to get things back in hand.

I could care less truthfully. The players don't care about winning anymore. It's all about the money. No team loyalty whatsoever.

	26-08-2002 20:56									#7
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Here is what I think needs to be done (no way in hell, I know):

1) remove the special anti-trust protection baseball has, and allow new franchises to pop up if people are willing to fund them (DC springs to mind, and NY could support 1-2 more teams). At the same time, if a team is badly run or in a market which cannot support them, allow them to go bankrupt. Them's the breaks.

2) Revenue sharing that makes sense. By this I mean a system which rewards small market teams that are well-run, not one that just takes from the rich and gives to the "poor." In order to do this, we need: a workable definition, in hard numbers, of what exactly constitutes "small market" and "medium market" and "large market." The Baseball Prospectus website has had two different, but very interesting, revenue sharing plans posted in the past weeks. The more recent one would probably kill my favorite team (yep, I'm a Yankees fan), but I like the attempt to evaluate the different markets and what each team is doing with what it has.

3) No more publicly funded stadiums. What the hell is this? We give money to incredibly rich people to build stadiums and then pay more money for tickets? WTF!?

The MLBPA sucks, yes, but I don't favor abolishing it. First off, that's not legal, and it's not right. As much as I loathe Donald Fehr, I accept the player's right to organize.

I do not want total "competitive balance" such that any team can win in any given season. I want a normal development cycle (a team will be good for a few seasons, then be bad for a bit, then be back up there again... assuming they are well-run) with a system that prevents total dominance by the rich teams without screwing them for being successful. A sport needs excellence to be really interesting... I don't want a bunch of mediocre teams so that everyone has a chance. I want everyone to have a chance, with proper management, to become a good team and go on a sustained run, like the Oakland A's have done with nothing but Billy Beane's brilliance (I shudder at the thought of what he could do with a decent payroll).

-Arrian

	26-08-2002 20:58									#8
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-- Revenue sharing through a luxury tax (on nine-figure payrolls). Require that the stipends the smaller teams get be spent on salary.

-- Kill Bud Selig by throwing him into a tank with sharks with frikkin' lasers attached to their heads. Then either reinstate Fay Vincent or put Frank Robinson in as commish.

-- Currently, there's a rule that any eight owners can block a labor settlement. This played a big role in the 1994-95 strike and derailed labor talks earlier this month.

-- Eliminate salary arbitration. It's caused salaries to go up all because of the stupidity of some rich owners (*cough*Steinbrenner*cough*), forcing smarter but poorer owners (Oakland) to up their salary offers. (Or just throw Steinbrenner in the tank with Selig. )

-- Random drug testing.

-- Raise the mound two inches.

-- Keep the three divisions, but eliminate wild-card play. The team with the best record in each league gets a first-round bye and goes straight to the LCS. (Or, alternatively, add another wildcard slot. Each division champ gets a first-round bye while the wild card teams play a best-of-5 series to go on.)

-- Reduce interleague play to two three-game series per season (one per half).

-- Make the All-Star Game mean something again. Examples: Have it so the winner gets home-field advantage in the Series, or so that the winner determines whether the DH is used or not.

-- Remove baseball's anti-trust protection.

	26-08-2002 21:05									#9
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I never thought I would want to see a union busted, but this one I most certainly do. I have never been a huge baseball fan, but what small ammount of love I have for the sport will be gone forever if they strike.

	26-08-2002 21:08									#10
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1) Hard salary cap
2) A set percentage of profits to go to the players with the owners books open to independent auditors
(and no funny stuff like with WGN, the Tribune Company and the Cubs)
2) Revenue sharing of all (local and national) broadcast fees
3) eliminate arbitration
4) No guaranteed contracts... but you can't cut an injured player.
5) Drug testing... one miss, rehab... second miss... toast time
6) Yeah... might as well make the All Star game mean something... good idea Vlad.

	26-08-2002 21:09									#11
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City-owned teams could possibly help a bit, especially since cities seem to be footing the bill anyway and this would stop teams from committing such horrors as moving the Albuquerque
worked for green bay...

Last edited by Bosh on 26-08-2002 at 21:27

	26-08-2002 21:22									#12
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No offense, but municpal ownership of teams would probably be disastrous. I want good management - which means keeping to a budget, hiring competent employees, and at the same time, knowing when to go for it all. Do you think a city government is capable of that?

I think Ming's idea of a set percentage of profits going to players plus transparency of the team's books has promise. It's radically different than what we have now, but it might work.

-Arrian

	26-08-2002 21:27									#13
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When are they supposed to go on strike, by the way?

	26-08-2002 21:28									#14
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In 4 days, IIRC.

	26-08-2002 21:46									#15
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I think the fans are a bunch of whiners. Actually I think they're a bunch of jerks, demanding that these people entertain them in spite of the problems between the two sides.

	26-08-2002 21:50									#16
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Can someone explain to me why interleague play is considered such a disaster? I can't see how this affects things one way or the other financially.

	26-08-2002 21:52									#17
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I think the fans are a bunch of whiners. Actually I think they're a bunch of jerks, demanding that these people entertain them in spite of the problems between the two sides.

Hmmmm... without the fans, there would be no game
It's about time that both sides listened to the people that make it all possible. Fans have been ignored far too long...

	26-08-2002 21:59									#18
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Fans, aka, consumers, have no place in a labor management dispute. Both sides have to realize there's a risk in their consumers going elsewhere, but since baseball hsa a monopoly, there's nowhere else to go. I simply don't buy people's threats to stop watching the game because of a strike. If they don't want to watch the game, then why are they upset about the strike. If they're upset about the strike, why would they go on strike themselves.

	26-08-2002 22:13									#19
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Fans, aka, consumers, have no place in a labor management dispute. Both sides have to realize there's a risk in their consumers going elsewhere, but since baseball hsa a monopoly, there's nowhere else to go. I simply don't buy people's threats to stop watching the game because of a strike.

I disagree... This is not a necessity... it's entertainment. There are a lot of other ways for people to spend their entertainment dollars. To ignore your source of revenue is just stupid. While you might not buy into people's threats... the last stike showed that you are wrong. It took years for revenue to come back to pre strike levels, so obviously many people were serious with their threats. And many people I know are still on strike against baseball because of the last strike.

So the fans should have a place in this depute... because all both sides are doing is figuring out how to split the fans money... Without the fans, there is really noting to split up

	26-08-2002 22:17									#20
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If the League didn't have a monopoly, the Players could still entertain the fans while the stike is on. They did this in the 19th Century, creating the Players League while they were on strike. It worked pretty well but it had one major flaw, the new league still had teams with owners, and the NBL simply bought them out.

	26-08-2002 22:28									#21
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara If the League didn't have a monopoly, the Players could still entertain the fans while the stike is on. They did this in the 19th Century, creating the Players League while they were on strike.

While you are correct, it won't work now. Back then, the average fan identified with the players, and saw the owners for what they were... blood sucking leaches, making big profits on the backs of their slaves.

This is probably the first time the majority of fans think the players are the "more" greedy side. (based on most of the polls I've seen) Granted, there is more than enough blame to spread around to both sides, but the players look worse right now than the owners.

	26-08-2002 22:30									#22
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I don't like major league baseball much to begin with, it's boring. Minor league games are fun to watch (my family and I used to go to see Kane County Cougars games fairly often when we still lived in Illinois), but it's tough to be a die-hard major league fan when you're supposed to be rooting for the Cubs.

	26-08-2002 22:36									#23
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Hahahaaha, baseball fans. You'll never see the NFL have these kinds of problems, and it's pretty dang exciting when any team can make it to the big show - except for the Bungles.

	26-08-2002 22:36									#24
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So Che, apparently you don't follow the "customer is always right" philosophy do you?

These players are our jesters. Our monkies. They are for our entertainment.

A business that doesn't acknowledge its customers is a business doomed to fail.

Thats what "fans" fail to recognize...how much leverage they truly have.

Power to the people.

	26-08-2002 22:45									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Andrew1999 Can someone explain to me why interleague play is considered such a disaster? I can't see how this affects things one way or the other financially.

It's not totally considered a disaster. There are a few teams it's really helps. The cubs-soxs series is the only series that was sold out at Comisky this year. Mets-Yankees, Dodgers-Angels. It's only bad when the other team is having a bad year so there is no incentive for fans to go and while that can happen to teams in your own division, those teams, you have some built up hatred for. So While I think there is always a place for it, they should limit it to the ones they know it helps.

	26-08-2002 22:50									#26
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While we're fixing baseball, lets get rid of the DH and the use of middle relief.

And no more allowing players to walk a lap around the batters box, fiddle with their whole uniform and drink a beer (practically) between pitches. The pace of the game is so slow sometimes, it's no wonder people think it's boring.

	26-08-2002 22:55									#27
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quote: Originally posted by drake So Che, apparently you don't follow the "customer is always right" philosophy do you?

No, I don't. Many times the customer isn't just wrong, he's a total *****. Granted, I believe people should strive to be kind, curtious, and as accomodating as possible, but I don't think people should be force to give up their dignity nor their rights just because someone wants service and they want it NOW!

	26-08-2002 22:57									#28
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In putting together my list, I'm trying to be feasible - meaning coming up with something that will improve the game and something that the owners and players could actually agree on. (For example, there's no way the players will ever agree to a hard salary cap, so that's out the window right away.) A lot of these ideas come from a recent SI article, so I take no credit for coming up with them.

Current Labor Deal

-- The two sides are currently $222.8 million apart on the total amount of revenue to share over the life of the deal. Here's how you come to a compromise: Split the difference, let the owners have their ceiling, and let the players have their phasing in. This would give us revenue sharing of $202 million in 2003, $226 million in 2004, $249 million in 2005, and $263 million in 2006. That's almost a billion dollars, and about double what's being paid now.

-- The owners' main concerns with the players' proposed ceilings for the luxury tax is that it would only affect a couple of teams (the Yankees & the Rangers, based on current figures). Take the middle of the road for the initial limit, and split the difference on increases. Give the players a tax-free final year, and agree to higher rates (not as high as the owners are proposing now, but not much lower). This would leave us with a ceiling of $115 million in the first year (this would affect the Yankees, Texas, Los Angeles, & Boston at current rates), $120 million in the second year, and $125 million in the third year, with tax rates from 30%-40%, and a tax-free final year.

-- Each side wins one and loses one on the contraction and drug testing issues. The players agree to random testing for steroids & illegal drugs for the duration of the deal. In exchange, the owners agree that they must clear any contraction attempts with the union.

Ideas for the Future

1) Kill the antitrust exemption. It only adds to baseball's poor public image.

2) Split the role of the commissioner's office - have one guy to handle the financials, and another to handle day-to-day game-related decisions and PR with both the players & the fans. I'd be able to tolerate Selig if he was purely a financial guy.

3) Require teams to come up with affordable ticketing packages so that the average family doesn't need to blow $200 to see a game.

4) Vlad's suggestion: Put home-field advantage in the World Series up for grabs in the All-Star game. And while you're at it, bring a few Futures players on board as backup so that we don't have another tie game fiasco.

5) Launch a national all-MLB digital TV channel, and share revenues from it equally among low-to-mid revenue teams. (This would make a lower local revenue sharing percentage more feasible.)

6) All teams need to have equal access to foreign players, which means killing the bidding process for Japanese players and making Japanese teams deal directly with the league, and putting the Latin American academies under direct control of the league.

7) Use the discretionary fund to assist small-market teams in signing their own players, ala the NBA's Larry Bird exemption.

8) Allow teams to trade their draft choices in both American and international drafts.

9) We've got a Little League World Series - why not a Major League World Series? God knows it would increase MLB's international presence and with it, revenues.

10) For interleague play, pair up natural rivals with each other (and make natural rivals among teams that don't have them) and schedule home-and-home series, plus 2 series against other teams on a rotating basis.

	26-08-2002 22:57									#29
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Drake,

I'm with you on the time spent out of the batter's box by hitters... the same is true to an extent of pitchers pacing around on the mound (the guy on the mound today for the Yanks has been guilty of this at times. El Duque can take FOREVER if he's not 100% confident).

I'm not sure I agree about the DH. I'm torn on this one. First off, I'm used to it. Second, I've seen pitchers try to hit and it's pathetic for the most part (Mike Hampton is an exception, as he's actually a better hitter right now than he is a pitcher).

How's this for the middle relief thing - a pitcher MUST face at least 2 hitters. No more lefty/lefty or righty/righty matchups where the pitcher is in there for 1 batter and then there's another pitching change.

-Arrian

	26-08-2002 23:02									#30
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So if you were at a restaraunt and your waiter haucked up a loogie on your dinner you wouldn't be upset? Thats what the owners and players are doing to the fans in a very real way.

Fans ask the minimum of their teams and players. You act as though it's an un-reasonable demand for a guy to want to be able to afford to take his family to the ballgame. Which in this day and age for the working class man might be difficult.

The fans cheer and support their team ALL summer, hoping that maybe their team will win the world series. What does it say when these players intentionally deny everyone of this priviledge over a few pennies? It shows how selfish these people are.

I'm baffled as to how you can say the fans are the *******s