27-08-2002 02:21									#1
	Children's Creche - Morale and Efficiency Full PM-box? Change here!

I looked a bit in old threads, there is some knowledge but I found nothing concisely written. So my problem:
What does Children's Creche?
- Growth is clear: Adds +2 growth to the base.
What does it to the efficiency? I've somewhere read +1 efficiency. Does this affect corruption and waste only, or also bureaucracy drones?
Even more complicated: What happens to morale? The datalinks description says something about "All negative MORALE effects are cancelled for units in base square; instead such units receive a +1 MORALE modifier."
This is certainly not everything because I once played Deirdre with wealth SE choice, thus had -3 MORALE. I was unable to get elite units from bases without creche (putting a command unit to monolith gave the message for increased morale, which afterwards was command. Rehoming to a base with creche made the unit elite.) So, does someone know what exactly is happening? Or maybe we just can collect observations to find it out ...

	27-08-2002 02:32									#2
	Full PM-box? Change here!

The morale bonus comes only when the unit inside the base is defending against some enemy, and I think the modifier was a (+) or something like that. Also, IIRC the CC Effic was +2, but I could be wrong. It does not effect drones (IIRC, again).

	27-08-2002 10:33									#3
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Datalinks say EFFICIENCY+1. But when you mention (+), I've seen also (-) and (++) behind morale. This means what?

	27-08-2002 13:00									#4
	Re: Children's Creche - Morale and Efficiency Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Adalbertus ...corruption and waste ...

You've played too much Civ3!!!
"Corruption" is just called Inefficiency here (no moral implication), and there is no production decrease due to waste...

About Creches and morale, sorry but this is one of the aspects that I've investigated less.

I can only report something that I'm 100% sure of:
After you discover Ethical Calculus, if you build a unit in a base with a Creche, and then you rehome it in a base without a Creche, that unit will always immediately and definitely lose one morale level, even if you later build a Creche in the new base.
I mean, a visible morale level that you can permanently see in the unit's flag, even when it gets out of base, not just the (-) or (++) thing.

I then "think" to recall that if I build a unit in a base without CC, then build the CC, and then build a 2nd unit, the 2nd unit will have 1 visible and permanent morale level more than the 1st one, all the rest being the same.
I can't say whether a negative Morale SE is required for this to happen. I usually go for IndAuto and switch to Wealth even before I discover Calculus...
In one occasion that I clearly recall now, I did it without Wealth, but I was Gaian, so I had an embedded negative morale anyway.

	27-08-2002 19:31									#5
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quote: I can only report something that I'm 100% sure of: After you discover Ethical Calculus, if you build a unit in a base with a Creche, and then you rehome it in a base without a Creche, that unit will always immediately and definitely lose one morale level, even if you later build a Creche in the new base. I mean, a visible morale level that you can permanently see in the unit's flag, even when it gets out of base, not just the (-) or (++) thing.

I'm afraid I was unable to duplicate that effect. (It was weird enough that I felt compelled to test it). The test conditions was under -2 morale - running wealth, for completness I also tested 0 morale and as expected no permament effect was observed.
If it matters (and it probably doesn't) I ran the tests in Linux SMAC - fixes to subtle gameplay bugs are few and far between in Linux SMAC - unless they are also fixed in SMACX (GA bug, Maitenance)

Ugh, now it probably seems like I'm in "Prove MariOne wrong" mode

Just to not totally hijack the thread, I think the Children Creche thing definitely has to go in the FAQ thread.

For now here is a canned response I made to another simialler query....

quote: The children creche gives a basic unconditional +1 Morale under negative morale conditions (-1morale or worse). This doesn't show as a +, it makes a commando elite. This bonus if for being homed to a base with a CC. Next. The CC gives one + (in base) regardless of Morale SE. Next. The CC gives another + for every "-X Morale", so thats + for -1,-2 morale, ++ for -3 morale, +++ for -4 morale (this is extra +'s past the first one you get under any morale). This bonus is applied regardless of unit morale and type, so natives too get a nice boost to attack/defense. This gives elite units insane attack bonuses like a 90% attack bonus when attacking from a base with a CC under -4 morale. Ditto for natives. -2 or worse Morale causes the benefit of +2 Morale facilities to only give +1 Morale. The Children Creche does not effect this at all!!! This morale is permamentaly lost, likewise a unit build under good morale, will not lose any morale over and above the "-X morale". More oddities: Scenerio Sandbox testers beware! In the first 15 years all units have a single +.

It needs tidying up tho.

	27-08-2002 20:25									#6
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"Ugh, now it probably seems like I'm in "Prove MariOne wrong" mode "
I always claimed that I will always welcome proven confutations of what I say, so don't worry. Even, go on, you're doing me a service in helping me sort out my errors!

Nevertheless, the fact that when I home a unit from a CC base to a CCless base, it loses a morale level, this happens to me everyday, I consider it a basic given of the game mechanisms.
It happened also last week in a short solo SMAX game I kicked on before sleeping, and it was Sparta (on a 20x20 planet) so no negative morale was involved.

It is also sure that this doesn't depend by being in base. You never *see* the morale change when a unit gets in and out a base.

Whether the unit that lost the morale can regain it by later building the missing CC in his new home base, I never observed it, but *this* I might have overlooked and could be re-checked for.

Moreover, I could never reproduce the contrary, that you *gain* a morale simply by homing from a CCless base to a CC base!
Or that a unit first built in a CCless base gains a morale if you *later* build a CC in his base....

	27-08-2002 23:54									#7
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Dang,

We've been playing this addiction for how long now? We still seem unable to get our hands around the whole childrens creche, morale, efficiency (and if it affects b-drones) issues.

I find the rules Blake refers to akin to US tax code. There is an answer but damned if I can puzzle my way through it. All I do know is that I can get elites by running Fundy/wealth and 2 +2 morale facilites plus trained along with a creche.

Thats green(default)
disciplined - 1 morale increase
hardened - 2 morale increases
veteran - 3 morale increases
commando - 4 morale increases
Elite - 5 morale increases

vs. Fundy/wealth -1 morale (I think)
Creche - either negates -1 morale or adds 1 morale netting a 0 morale

2 x +2 facilities = +4 morale
traine = +1 morale for grand total of +5

OTOH for Sparta I normally consider Fundy/Trained and a single +2 in order to get elites.

	28-08-2002 07:11									#8
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MariOne- you do indeed gain back the morale when homing from a crecheless base to one with a creche or in the case of building the creche after the unit. Only with the Gaians might this not hold true, if they're running WEALTH. I'm not sure, I don't play the Gaians often enough to remember.

	28-08-2002 14:31									#9
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Well, thanks Mong, one more thing I have thus overlooked, despite my reputation ()

BTW, I'm not neglecting the support you've asked from me, by fiddling here with this issues:
I do this posting fom work indeed, where I can't have SMAC installed anyway

	28-08-2002 22:54									#10
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Just did do some testing on the efficiency bit. I used the scenario editor, standard map size, to create a couple of, i. e. eight, Hive bases of size about 5. SE choices were on standard efficiency. This gave me two bureaucracy drones, in city 5 and 6, which were not removed by building creches in all cities. Building the telepathic matrix (i don't like riots) and running the game for one turn didn't change anything. Switching to Knowledge removed one drone, as it should from the formula.
Then I equipped one base with more population, and solar collectors/mirrors, and, lo, the creche reduced the corrinefficiency. I didn't test it against the inefficiency formula, however.
So for the efficiency bit:Creches help the inefficiency but not bureaucracy.

When I feel in the mood, I'll test the morale bit also but it seems to be much more complex.

quote: MariOne: You've played too much Civ3!!!

You're right. Two games or so.
Honestly, this parlance stems from Civ1 and Civ2 which I played almost as excessively as SMAX now.

quote: Blake: Just to not totally hijack the thread, I think the Children Creche thing definitely has to go in the FAQ thread.

Sssh! That's my secret idea why I created this thread. I first wanted to collect the facts before posting nonsense in the FAQ thread.

	29-08-2002 03:09									#11
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I am almost certain I have the morale thing 100% correct, it seems theres only a few people in the world who do understand it (kinda like general relativity ). It was explained in some detail a while a go, by Tau Ceti I believe but the post has since been lost to the void.
Not at GGN tho

http://www.civgaming.net/forums/sho...p?threadid=1238
(Note this link does not actually detail exactly how CC works, it's merely a high quality discussion)

The Full effects:
1- Under negative morale conditions any unit homed to a base with a CC enjoys +1 Morale. This bonus is lost when homed to a base with a CC, gained when homed to a base with a CC. This does not show as a +, it will make a commando unit elite and give it +1 movement, unlike a + which will make it fight at +50%, but it will still be called a commando and have 1 movement.

2- Under the "Morale" SE short description, if it says "-1 Morale" "-2 Morale" etc, that is how many basic +'s the CC gives for units in the base. ie
-1,-2 SE Morale +
-3 Morale ++
-4 Morale +++
-5 Morale ++++

3- The CC gives an unconditional + to every unit in the base. This is regardless of Morale.

4- 2 and 3 apply for being in a base with a CC, 1 for being homed to a base with a CC - note bonus 1 is NOT lost when moving outside of friendly territory.

5- effect 2 and 3 apply for all unit types (including native), effect 1 only applies to non-native units.

5- With -2 morale or worse, all facilities which increase morale of new units by 2, only increase morale by 1 - The CC has NO effect on this!!!!!!! It does not even deserve to be mentioned under the effects of the CC except for the fact that many people thing that CC's eliminate this effect. They Dont!

6- All units have an additional + in the first 15 turns, this is not a CC effect and I have not explored it fully, but mention it due to it's implications on testing the effects of CC's in the scenerio editor (generate 20 turns first to be safe!)

Now I'm pretty sure thats the full and complete description, unless I made a oops.
AFAIK there is no "in territory" effect, it's in base or not in base.
Ofcourse every effect I mentioned should be tested, but it should provide as a useful guide of what your testing for.

Last edited by Blake on 29-08-2002 at 03:15

	29-08-2002 03:44									#12
	Put an end to popups!

quote: 6- All units have an additional + in the first 15 turns

The first 15 turns of their life or the game?

So, if I understand you correctly, the (-), (+) etc means another 12.5% in combat without directly being added to the morale level? What's the effect that gives (-) to some units?
5- explains some "strange effects" I've observed. Is it conserved when I change the SE values?
Did you observe anything of an "upper morale limit" with negative SE choices as I (upgrading a command unit at a monolith didn't give anything before re-homing to a base with children's creche) ?
Anyway, a very helpful post, Blake.

	29-08-2002 15:52									#13
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A drone riot in the units home base will yield a (-). As for others I'm not sure.

	29-08-2002 22:15									#14
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Blake, that was a very good description; it seems to be reasonably consistent with all the partially complete and ambiguous documentation and I don't think I have any examples to refute any of it. The requirement for a negative morale to trigger effect #1 explains some of the confusion and seemingly contradictory postings.

I don't know that I am completely clear on the effects of chnaging SE settings. For example, the difference between building a unit under positive morale conditions and then changing SEs to negative morale compared to building it under negative morale initially or vice versa. What about just between different degrees of positive morale; of negative; positive and zero; negative and zero; with and without creches?

I think that the loss of half the morale-boost from facilities when building under -2 or less is not recoverable when switching morale on a previously built unit, so units built under negative morale should end up with a morale lower than one built under positive morale (comparing them while both are under the same positive or negative morale conditions, i.e. one or both having switched SEs) - the difference being the number of morale boosting facilities used in their construction. OTOH, I seem to recall an earlier thread where someone (perhaps you even) said something to the effect that there is a "floor" on the amount of negativity - perhaps that a unit cannot start lower than very green, no matter the morale adjustment, in which case the difference between the units in my example could be less than 1 level per morale boosting facility I suppose that there could also be a ceiling, where further morale adjustments are wasted.

Some consideration of the implications of capturing or giving/receiving units might be helpful also, as there is the potential for the unit to experience both a change of SE settings and a change of home base (with/without creche) status at the same time.

Some minor points:
- I presume that you mean the 1st 15 moves of the game in #6.
- #1 looks like it has a typing or a otherwise unintended random "oops" in it:

quote: 1- Under negative morale conditions any unit homed to a base with a CC enjoys +1 Morale. This bonus is lost when homed to a base with a CC, gained when homed to a base with a CC. This does not show as a +, it will make a commando unit elite and give it +1 movement, unlike a + which will make it fight at +50%, but it will still be called a commando and have 1 movement.

I believe that the "with" was supposed to be "without" so that it would read:

quote: 1- Under negative morale ..... This bonus is lost when homed to a base without a CC, gained when homed to a base with a CC. .....

	31-08-2002 05:58									#15
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To eliminate confusion, always refer to SE Morale effects as "SE Morale;" do not drop the "SE," please. It's only two letter (plus the space). A newbie would be be hard-pressed to comprehend this even with that clarification.

Firaxis should've used two separate terms. And should've written a coherent description of CC effects. A blight upon them.