27-08-2002 04:05									#1
	The Dark Side Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Hi all, I'm a new member here

I notice the strong players on this forum (Aeson, Arrian, Theseus et al) sometimes speak of "The Dark Side" (as in Star Wars), referring to an aggressive, merciless style of play (especially in the early game, it seems). Great term, guys

Yesterday I tried an Always War game for the first time, in Emperor, with the Aztecs. Extremely fun, must say. Haven't reached a dominant position yet, but I don't see anything stopping my advance either (except conceivably if I completely fail to keep up in tech).

Surprised me how easily I could actually cripple my AI neighbours early on, just by being aggressive. Feel myself slipping to the Dark Side...

Btw, I modded the AI build preferences, somewhat along the line of what Theseus et al had discussed in another thread ("improving the AI", something like that). So the AI should be more of a killer - it's difficult to compare though.

Just a thought on this "killer AI" modding as well - I suggest also tinkering with the favorite/shunned govs (which I did). Firaxis also set those for flavor, not AI effectiveness.

	27-08-2002 13:11									#2
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I think the fav is an attempt to be in line with the type civ they actual were when possible. USA- dem, Rome-Republic etc. Not to be effective, just what you might associate with them.

	27-08-2002 18:41									#3
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hr_oskar,

Welcome. Vel would be proud of your usage of the mean green machine.

vmxa1,

I think he's talking about the AI build preferences, not the AI government preferences.

-Arrian

	27-08-2002 21:17									#4
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Actually, I was also talking about the gov preferences...

I was referring to Alexman's thread about changing the build preferences to make a better AI:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...?threadid=56961

Soren made a comment there, saying Firaxis hadn't set these for max effectiveness, but rather for flavor.

My point was that apparently they also set the gov preferences for flavor, not effectiveness. So I also modded those, in an attempt to make the AI better.

For example I removed all preferences for Communism - I doubt that the AI can handle that gov; also removed all prefs for Despotism, for obvious reasons. Generally made Monarchy more popular, and Rep/Demo more popular for the builder civs.

Not that I have, as far as I remember, noticed the AI selecting its government very much according to those preferences... but then I haven't been paying that much attention to it. Seems they all prefer Republic and Demo, actually... Any of you have a clue about this???

	27-08-2002 21:39									#5
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hr_oskar,

Yeah, despite the government preferences, I've always noticed the AI using Republic and Democracy, even the supposed militarists. They also have an unhealthy attachment to communism if at war in the industrial age.

The fact is that republic/demo are the best governments most of the time, so the AI choses them, overiding the preferences.

-Arrian

	27-08-2002 21:42									#6
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Hehe, the Mean Green Machine ... I did an okay job with those, I think, but my Jag strategy definitely needs practice. I'm so used to massing Swordsmen, I kind of stopped building the Jags after I got Iron, and sent most of them on garrison duty.

But still, wrought plenty havoc early on - razing the freshly built Iroquois' second city was a joy, and getting my first leader before 2000 BC also brought an evil grin, hehe...

Ironic how Firaxis introduced culture intending to encourage peaceful styles of play... kind of backfired I think, because of the leader system. My culture is much stronger with this blood-thirsty style of play, because I could rush the Pyramids and various other GW's very early, with all those leaders I got from the fighting

A thought about the JW's: I think combining them with Catapults can greatly increase their effectiveness in the field. A stack of JW's and Catapults can kill units that come close, by bombarding them, then letting the Jags feast on the wounded, and run back after the victory. This is much harder to do with Swordsmen obviously, as they can't hit-and-run.

People are too hard on Catapults, IMHO - you have to count in that you never lose your Catapults if you're careful, and they will help you win without losing your other units as well. Thus they can save you shields in the long run, by reducing your casualties - and help you keep the elites alive. Also, you have much more time in your ancient wars, since there's no WW; so bombard that city, and don't attack if the results are bad - try again next turn.

	27-08-2002 21:50									#7
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Yes, the Dark Side can be quite seductive. Nothing like using GLs to build wonders and infrastructure.

	27-08-2002 22:36									#8
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Dark Side is even more compelling at Deity level. There, the AI tech-whoring is far more rampant, the "ganging-up against the human player" mentality is stronger, the AIs research and produce much faster. In a sense, if you play peacefully at Deity level, you will be bottled up by aggressive AI REXings, with no hope of ever building a Wonder on your own, and always remain dead last in the tech race.

In my opinion, Aztecs are Japanese are the best civs to play at Deity level.

	28-08-2002 00:12									#9
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quote: Originally posted by hr_oskar Not that I have, as far as I remember, noticed the AI selecting its government very much according to those preferences... but then I haven't been paying that much attention to it. Seems they all prefer Republic and Demo, actually... Any of you have a clue about this???

After a recent discussion on this in another thread I did a quick experiment. Human and AI start on a very small island, completely RR'd, with most advances and a number of units (I actually used a test scenario I had created to test armies). In one version, I set Cleo's favorite gov to democracy, and had Rome (human) start as a democracy - first move is to contact Cleo, her attitude is "Cautious." Second version, democracy is Cleo's shunned government - same opening move, and her attitude was "Annoyed." Since I too have seen many instances of supposed "democracy shunners" like China and Russia blissfully enjoying the advantages of a democracy, I concluded for myself that the "favorite" and "shunned" governments only affect AI attitudes towards others, they do not influence government choice for the AI's own civ.

Catt

	28-08-2002 00:47									#10
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Thank you Catt

That's quite funny... it's like those guys who love watching foot-ball on TV, but never play themselves!

Shunning Republic and Democracy is then quite silly, and very double-standard - "What, you're democratic too?!? How pathetic!"

Seriously, if those settings only affect the diplomacy, that's really weird...

	28-08-2002 03:36									#11
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I get a kick out of thinking about it this way: I make contact with Mao of the Chinese, elected leader of a democratic China. Mao looks at my democracy and becomes annoyed with me because I have denied my people the wonderous benefits of Communism.

I think if it actually impacted the AI's own choice of government, it would severely hinder the AIs -- Democracy is the best peacetime government, Republic best if manageable warring is expected, Monarchy or Communism if warring a bunch. Think of poor Shaka - the Zulu favorite government is Despot - not much of a chance of winning if that favorites governement flag actually strongly influenced Shaka's own government choice.

I honestly can't say that favorite / shunned governements affect my play in any way, nor do I notice enough of a change in AI attitudes (I have a Gracious Mao often enough when I'm in a Democracy) -- I think it is simply one more way in which Firaxis tried to provide some true differences in character or feel to each of the AI opponents (similar to aggressiveness ratings, civ traits, UUs, "build often" priorities, etc.)

Catt

	28-08-2002 04:31									#12
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Hehe... Montezuma, emperor of the Aztec despotism and all-time warmonger psycho, meets Shaka "the Wise", benevolent leader of the Zulu democracy; Shaka goes "Whoa Monty, you da man!!! Wish I could have as much fun as you do, whipping people and all! "

	28-08-2002 19:33									#13
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That's hilarious. Good work, Catt, testing that!

oskar,

I am one of those who doesn't use catapults. Correction... I will use 'em, but I almost never build 'em (occasionally right before the discovery of metallurgy if I do have anything else I really need to build right then, so I can upgrade them). They are fine at hitting units out in the open, so your JW + Cats idea is probably sound. But they are very ineffective at city bombardment.

I think I may try using them some more in the future to help out my elite units. I try to use my elites to pick off units that are wounded or out in the open anyway. I can probably afford to rushbuy a catapult or three to stack with my elites to help with their survivability and success rate. If that pays off with so much as 1 more leader, it's more than worth it.

-Arrian

	29-08-2002 01:41									#14
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hr_oskar, welcome aboard the ACSS Dark Side!! Trust me, it gets worser and worser... you start dreaming about pre-2000BC GL-fests ("god, I wonder what happens if I get the Colossus, the Pyramids, and the GLib using just Warriors...").

Good idea on cats, btw... I don;t know why no one thought of them as contributors to a GL generation team. Send out a 2-3 strength defender, a cat, and any fastmover, and voila!! Maybe even two of each...

	29-08-2002 02:04									#15
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Theseus,

I still want to get a warrior to generate a leader (none since 1.29)... I wanna name him Grog. Then maybe he will get to go into an army... which later will get a Tank...

-Arrian

	29-08-2002 02:48									#16
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Unbeliever!!!

You gotta do it once, just to use as your avatar, somehow showing Grog instead of the Tank.

Average stats: 9-5-1

It'd mess people up but good... "Man, that Arrian guy writes some good sh-t, but whassup with Grog??!!"

	29-08-2002 14:26									#17
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Arrian, your "Grog want tank" line is so funny

I can just see it...

The Adventures of Grog

3050 BC: Cleared his first barbarian camp

2600 BC: Returned home from campaign against the barbarians, elite hero, Protector of the Realm

2150 BC: With the help of his trusty catapults, Tom and Jerry, fended of the archer hordes of the evil English. Grog rescues from the defeated English a mythical hero taken capture 1200 years earlier, who makes a great new flag in honour of Grog, and promises to carry it around for him 'till the end of time.

1725 AD: Motorized transport discovered, GROG WANT TANK

1730 AD: Grog gets a shiny new tank, sticks Tom and Jerry to it and goes off for war

1810 AD: Grog completes his conquest of the world

	29-08-2002 20:06									#18
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Something like that, yeah.

There was an old Civ I cheat program that, when you loaded it, had a couple of different intros. One of the intros was grog want tank. Then, with the power of the cheat program, you could indeed provide Tanks in 4000BC.

-Arrian

	29-08-2002 20:22									#19
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Arrian, about using and building Catapults, this is my typical strategy:

Once I've got a small army to play around with, I like to get a few Cats to support it (typically 3-5). I build them early on, because they're like an investment with a slow but steady return. The ideal place to build them is in your new frontier cities that don't have any Barracks and a rather low production - both okay, because Cats are cheap and don't have an experience level.

	29-08-2002 23:12									#20
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Dark side, eh? Well, perhaps I'll start up a little Jedi foundation for us peaceful builders...

	30-08-2002 01:05									#21
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quote: Originally posted by punkbass2000 Dark side, eh? Well, perhaps I'll start up a little Jedi foundation for us peaceful builders...

The Jedi Foundation may work in MP games, but I see little hope against Emperor+ AI.

	30-08-2002 17:01									#22
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I would think the opposite, really. I doubt I'll be able to hold as builder against most of war mongers. I can generally convince the AI not to attack me during the time when I'm defended by nothing but spearmen and warriors and their nicely finishing off the Medieval Age. Any aggressive human player would just wipe me off the face of the Earth. Then again, if there are no AI for people to conquer and extort tech from, then they will likely to be pretty far behind techwise, so I guess we'll see.

	31-08-2002 03:33									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus hr_oskar, welcome aboard the ACSS Dark Side!! Trust me, it gets worser and worser... you start dreaming about pre-2000BC GL-fests ("god, I wonder what happens if I get the Colossus, the Pyramids, and the GLib using just Warriors..."). ...

Well, I could answer any one of you, and I have comments that U would like to hear. But time is precious and right now there are 2 much real life and 2 less civilization. Sorry.

Just want to brag off that my best game was on regent,where I conqured the world in 2700 BC. I used 8 units, warriors and archers, to achieve that. Score was above 14000, which I did not deserve.

More on subject: The dark side is something I will try again. Sometimes it's a real rocker!