30-08-2002 21:52									#61
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed what comprises basic english? what are its limits? and we all know that even people with advanced english skills can't always penetrate the obfuscations of legalese...

That's the point...it's a vague enough standard that it seems to give a great deal of wiggle room. I think it is thereby unsound to base policy on such a standard.

	30-08-2002 22:01									#62
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

perhaps. i think the best case here would be define the what passes for basic enlish-- perhaps, as part of the citizenship test, a bit of an english proficiency test as well?

	30-08-2002 22:04									#63
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

If you cant speak english, how can you possibly understand who and what you are voting for? Even if the ballots are in your language you still wont be able to understand what the person you are voting for says. So the vote will be just as random as if the ballots were printed in english. The difference is that a ton of money has been wasted on printing ballots in other languages.

	30-08-2002 22:11									#64
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Cali: not necessarily, as no doubt special interest groups will have peppered the individual's neighborhood/church/etc. with information on who they should vote for, and all probably in their native language.

What about non-English speakers who were natural born citizens? They didn't have to take the test, so would they then be eligible for multilingual ballots?

I tend to agree that one should be expected to learn the language of a country to participate in its civic life. I certainly wouldn't want someone who can't speak English well sitting on my jury if I was on trial.

	30-08-2002 22:13									#65
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: What about non-English speakers who were natural born citizens? They didn't have to take the test, so would they then be eligible for multilingual ballots?

sooner or later they will have to interface with the society that is not part of their little enclave.

when that day comes, be it in school, or playground, or anything else, they will learn english-- and children pick up new languages relatively quickly.

so no, they too are not eligible for multilingual ballots, imho.

	30-08-2002 22:20									#66
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Q--I was actually addressing the original poster, because he's trying to use the citizenship test as his standard. I'm just pointing out not all non-English speaking citizens had to take it.

I agree with you, certainly.

	30-08-2002 23:35									#67
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer And a true citizen of this country must at least be able to speak the language of this country! Democracy is a political system that thrives because of a certain level of free flow of information and public discussion.

I wonder if anyone else sees the inherent contradiction in this. Probably not.


Okay,

Democracy thrives on the free flow of information, so let's restrict the flow of information.

	30-08-2002 23:44									#68
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Docfeelgood To be a citizen one must be able to read, write and understand American english.

You forget about people born in the US to non-citizens? Anyone born in the US is automatically a citizen, no ifs, ands, or buts. It's in the 14th Amendment to the Consitution. As far as Spanish goes, remember that a sizeable proportion of Spanish speakers are either from a US territory, Puerto Rico, or lived in in the part of Mexico that got annexed by the US. There are still entire Mexican communities in the Southwest that can trace themselves back to before the US conquest. The same with the Russian communities in California. Also consider that until very recently, Cubans were given citizenship if they came over and asked for it.

	31-08-2002 01:03									#69
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I'd like to point out that someone else has been using my login and that the post under my handle in this thread wasn't made by me.

	31-08-2002 01:07									#70
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

You know what would work well? Stick a land ownership qualification on voting. That way only people who own land (which includes their house, if they own it, can vote). Woohoo!

Of course, I'm only joking. I don't really support this, although the political outcome of only allowing middle and upper class people to vote would probably be positive. Doesn't make it a good system though, although I have heard it advocated before.

	31-08-2002 01:16									#71
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Colon I'd like to point out that someone else has been using my login and that the post under my handle in this thread wasn't made by me.

I didnt think that sounded like you. Was it DanS?

	31-08-2002 01:17									#72
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I wonder if anyone else sees the inherent contradiction in this. Probably not. Okay, Democracy thrives on the free flow of information, so let's restrict the flow of information.

Those in the US who refuse to learn english are restricting themselves.

	31-08-2002 01:27									#73
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: You know what would work well? Stick a land ownership qualification on voting. That way only people who own land (which includes their house, if they own it, can vote). Woohoo!

Before WWI, Prussia had a voting system in three classes which you were assigned to by the amount of tax you pay. Also some sort of justifiable system: Those who pay, rule. (Not that I wouldn't support this, either )

	31-08-2002 01:29									#74
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I agree that once in the US people should learn a common language (doesn't necessarily have to be English, but it is currently the most spoken in the US).

But there are probably many cases where people escape their country because they are living terrible lives and don't have opportunities. Not having the opportunity to learn might just be one of them.

So until everyone speaks one language all around the world, we need to accomodate those that don't (yet).

	31-08-2002 03:28									#75
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Q, I do not oppose immigrants being required to learn basic English, but the ones who are in the process of that education, I believe, have the right to vote.

As for your differentiation between right and personal responsibility, that is an interesting argument.
You're saying that irresponsible people should not be denied the right to vote, so what is the issue that concerns you??
Only purely non-English speaking voters??

	31-08-2002 03:28									#76
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara While you're at it, why don't you petition to have all of the names of the states chnaged to English. You could also petition to have those dirty foreigners expelled from the country.

An admirable notion, Che!

Colorado to Colored (Not coloured, because that'd be too limey-ish)

Nevada to Snowy

Texas to "Friendship"

Mississippi to "It smells like piss everywhere*"

As for cities, all "San ___" cities should have the San removed as it means saint and of course any reference to christianity cannot be allowed. (So San Antonio would become Anthony, Ste. Marie would just be Mary)

*Just kiddin', DinoDoc.

	31-08-2002 03:30									#77
	Tired of ads?

I hate posting my post at same time a new page begins.

My latest reply to Q is at the bottom of page three.

	31-08-2002 08:07									#78
	Tired of ads?

I think it is a great idea to publish ballots or other public information in as amny languages as a useful to facilitate communication to the public. Default publish them is anylanguage that is a first (written) language of a substantial portion of the public, and have other less common languages made available upon a resoanble (several months) advance notice by a person of that language.

Last edited by Lefty Scaevola on 31-08-2002 at 09:18

	31-08-2002 08:22									#79
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

If you can't read the ballot, then you shouldn't be allowed to vote in the election. If you are not willing to assimilate and adapt into the culture enough to be able to read something as simple as a ballot (which is designed for the lowest common denominator), then you have no right to participate in that country politically.

Jimmytrick, you don't have to worry too much. There are still some right wingers here in the U.S.

	31-08-2002 08:33									#80
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara You forget about people born in the US to non-citizens? Anyone born in the US is automatically a citizen, no ifs, ands, or buts. It's in the 14th Amendment to the Consitution.

I thought that it was in the main body of the constitution?

I thought that I heard somewhere that Texas now has a hispanic majority?

	31-08-2002 08:49									#81
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Che:

There's no contradiction because I went on to add...

quote: Democracy can not survive if the population can not communicate with each other... and it's far easier for a minority of immigrants to learn english then the majority to learn a myriad of languages. Immigrants should conform to us... not us to them...

It's practicality... We need a free flow of information which requires everyone being able to communicate. To achieve this we got two choices: Have the english-speaking Americans learn Chinese, spanish, korean, AND etc. or have the far less numerous immigrants of these countries learn english. It seems simple to me.

And Mr.Fun et al...

any attempt to accept disallowance of one of the requirements of citizenship and of a democratic republic, is detrimental. Allowing immigrants to speak their old languages with no knowledge of the national language (english) results in the following problems:

1) Communication between citizens is destroyed; no free flow of information and free, fair elections
2) Segregation of immigrants from 'natives' (how can immigrants live in an english-speaking community if they don't know english)
3) Inability for immigrants to rise socially and economically (unable to have anything but the simplest jobs such as motel maids and field workers)


I can play Mr. Fun too and say that liberals only want to reduce immigrants especially hispanic minorities into a slave race reduced to poverty as field workers and maids (yes, massa) held under the 'well-intentioned' slaver known as the liberal cracker


thanks

	31-08-2002 11:43									#82
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

You could, but you'd be making a fool of yourself. You berk. Since when does allowing people a choice equate to slavery, you dolt?

That's a load of crap, Speer. Let me pick on a couple of particularly cretinous points.

quote: 2) Segregation of immigrants from 'natives' (how can immigrants live in an english-speaking community if they don't know english)

Great. So Spanish-speakers in the US are the immigrants, right? Because there's no long history of the Spanish language in America, right?

quote: 3) Inability for immigrants to rise socially and economically (unable to have anything but the simplest jobs such as motel maids and field workers)

In Hispanic communities that ain't the case. Besides, if people make an economic choice to learn a language that's a very different matter to being forced to do so. I daresay that one who only speaks Spanish would get along fine in most of the areas in the States where they don't marry their sisters.

quote: We need a free flow of information which requires everyone being able to communicate. To achieve this we got two choices: Have the english-speaking Americans learn Chinese, spanish, korean, AND etc. or have the far less numerous immigrants of these countries learn english. It seems simple to me.

So you want to snoop, right? If the Spanish/Korean speakers wanted themselves to be understood by you then they'd make strenuous attempts to do so. I think they just don't like you.

America is a multi-lingual country, and it sounds like some just don't want to accept that people can get by fine without being forced to use another language. It doesn't have to be like that- Wales gets on fine with using two languages. If I wanted to move to Belgium I wouldn't be required to learn both French and Flemish.

Getting paranoid about what your darker neighbours are saying? This just sounds like an attempt to restrict the numbers of Latinos and Koreans entering the country to me.

	31-08-2002 12:05									#83
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by TheStinger How difficult can a ballot be? isn't it just a list of names

No. Not normaly anyway.

There are usually other things than candidates. For Federal elections it is mostly just people. For state I gues it varies but I know some California ballots have had over 20 propositions (Usually an amendment to the State Constitution) plus local propositions and referendums.

Once there were three different propositions on tobbacco use alone, one referendum from some real California citizens and two put on the ballot by the tobbacco industry in an attempt cause confusion in hopes that all three intiative would lose. Its easy to get referendums on the ballot in California. Just get enough people to sign an initiative and its on no matter how stupid or venal(that tobbacco company stuff) it is. We have got some good laws out of it though. Had some that were struck down so fast by the courts that they never went into effect for even a day.

	31-08-2002 12:11									#84
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by MrFun Unfortunately, Ethelred, Jimmytrick and a few other conservatives on Apolyton seem to be suffering some kind of knee-jerk, compulsive behavior in recent days, on threads in which they want to exaggerate and distort the position of liberals and/or left wingers.

I looked at at three times before I figured out that you were commenting TOO me rather than including me with the Conservatives.

quote: But, let me take a shot at a strawman argument by making up a position of conservatives. They want to exterminate, or expel all non-white, non-Western European group members from our country.

Some do want that. There are still people in the US that want to send everyone whose ancestors were sold as slaves in the US to Africa.

They say 'back to Africa' on top of it as if they wouldn't really be forcibly deporting real Americans.

	31-08-2002 12:19									#85
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Well...here's a technicality, though. The citizenship language requirement is for basic English. If one could make make the case that voting instructions exceed a degree of basic English, then having multi-lingual instructions is perhaps justifiable.

Well they are supposed to be in regular English in California these days. The Lawyerese that was used to intentionally obfuscate is no allowed anymore. It still can be very complex and difficult to parse even without the Whereas's and Whyfor's and Party of the First Part nonsense.

	31-08-2002 12:24									#86
	Increase the size of your Attachments

okay...

1. english should be the only official language in the states
2. it is stupid to print ballots in other languages because the political ads and most publications, opinions, etc are in english...
3. If you don't like it, leave.

	31-08-2002 12:27									#87
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Ah, lovely. Kaak's bored so he's going to say something controversial and hope he gets some attention to make him feel warm and tingly in special places. Again.

Don't ever change, boy. The world needs you to feel better about everything else.

	31-08-2002 12:30									#88
	Increase Your PM Length

i feel fine about everything...and this site isn't where i get my warm tinglies.

just expressing my opinion like everyone else on here...

	31-08-2002 12:34									#89
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Dan Severn As for cities, all "San ___" cities should have the San removed as it means saint and of course any reference to christianity cannot be allowed. (So San Antonio would become Anthony, Ste. Marie would just be Mary) *Just kiddin', DinoDoc.

No way. We use Spanish names in California to confuse the heck out of the New Yorkers that keep moving here. If they pronounce La Jolla with an English J sound instead of the correct Spanish gutteral breath sound we know they are a furriner. Even if they don't have a Nuu Yawk accent.

Then again former and now deceased Mayor Sam Yorty never did pronouce his city's name right. He used a hard G for Los Angeles which is a considerably shortened version of the original Spanish name - Pueblo del Rio de Nuestra Senora la Reina de Los Angeles de Porciuncula (the Town of the River of Our Lady, Queen of the Angeles). I had to look it up to be sure I got it right. Its a real mouthful.

	31-08-2002 12:38									#90
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Having said that, I think Baton Rouge should be re-named "Red stick".