27-08-2002 23:56									#1
	Abananaba Minor Put an end to popups!

Up until we took France, at the western edge of the Grand Basin, the politics of Abananaba Minor have been unimportant. But the current wars and our new geographic reality have changed that siginificantly. The politics of Abananaba Minor do matter, and they are not looking well.

There are four civs in Abananaba Minor, rated #3 Rome, #9 Iriquois, #10 Russia, #11 Babylon. I am sorry, but that is not a good thing. Rome has been getting stronger and stronger. They have almost cornered the market of iron in the subconinent, and they also have plenty of horses. Some have sad that they expected the civs down there to be weak and divided. Well, three are very weak, but one is not. And the longer the game goes, the more the three loser civs become bigger losers, not possible allies. If we upgrade to 1.29, then the situation will be worst. Currently the AI trades generously among thmeselves, and this more than anything keep the situation from being a massacre. If the civ became stingy, like in 1.29, then the three non Roman civs would not have a chance.

What are the problems? The Iriquois are not building infrastructure. They have a bunch of tiny cities. They actually saw population decline from 450bc to 290 bc. They cant afford a military capable of fighting Rome. The Russians are not building culture, leaving their cities open to Babylonian cultural predation. Thay are an anemic civ not competing well. The Babylonians have little military potential. They also lost pop. in the last two turnthreads,and the babs refuse to use their horses, they still make bowmen!

Now that we own Paris, Rome is a neighbor, not some far off civ. If Rome goes to war with us, then plans for a quick strike against the eastern enemy must vanish- Rome has legions, which means not only the attack power of swordmen, but the defense of pikemen or Hoplites, menaing that cities the Romans gain will be as easy to retake as greek cities, or cities with pikemen. We can bet the Romans will beat us to chivalry also. and they will have the ability to make knights, with resources far away from our plundering hands.

We must come to some sort of accomodation with Rome soon, either as friends (higly unlikely), or simply not as enemies. I dont fear Persia much. I do fear Germany some, but we should be able to beat them back. But Rome has built itself a fine army (they are the only civ that makes our military look average, besides the Greeks) and lies far away. They could wage war with us to little cost to themselves, and to some cost to us (not in lost cities, but in tying up forces).

So I post the question. we are getting bigger, and getting more enemies. What shall we do about Rome. I doubt higly we can count on the runts that surround her to be of any worthwhile help to our forces. We must act oursleves. What will those actions be?

	28-08-2002 00:20									#2
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If Rome decides to declare war on one of the other Abananaba Minor civs (the anemic civs as you so well describe them) we should wait until Rome has achieved a few victories and robbed the anemic civs of most of their wealth and then offer our alliance. This would help improve relations with Rome, and joining in a later stage of the war will also assure that the anemic civs will not have enough resources to convince other civs (not any significant ones anyway) to declare war on us.

	28-08-2002 00:39									#3
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Abananaba Minor is a fun playground for diplomatic relations. I'd rather fight Rome than let them grow stronger.

	28-08-2002 00:56									#4
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I fear that the option of suing other civs vs. Rome is a dwindling option. The Russians are also neighbors, and I would not count on their suport. The Babylonians are too weak period, and are alive only because the AI doens't have the killer spirit early in games: Otherwise legions or Russian horsemen would have camped in Babylon a while ago.

I see the Iriquois as the civ most likely to be friendly, and they did surpass the Russians in the histograph, but they are horribly weak. They still have not expanded culturally enough to get horses, which should be a top priority for any civ with a mounted UU.

I don't think a war with Rome, until the time of better technology like cavalry, is worth the expense. At the same time, we have to keep Rome out of our hair. The only positive I see is that Rome is more likely to go to war with a civ outside of the subcontinent than within. But if Rome goes to war with its neighbors, we wil be in a pickle, because as things stand, no one in Abananaba Minor can stand up to Rome.

	28-08-2002 01:20									#5
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What I see in abanaba minor:

The narrow strip connecting the upper and lower is currently owned by french influence. This influence will not be effected at all by our war, so they will continue to serve as a land buffer for a time.

The russians are doing very nicely. If they conjure up the will to build a temple, they will soon have coal. They are lacking in lux's, but that could also be fixed with a single temple near the dyes. Their roads are the envy of abanaba minor.

The babylonians aren't expanding as much as they should physically, but they have at least two temples and a wonder. Unless the romans quickly declare war, they will soon lose Cumae (sp) to Babylon, along with some coal. Their lack of roads leaves me less than confident about their future, however. They do have a lux, and _very_ good city positions.

Rome has 4 large cities, coal, wine, soon silk, incense, ivory, and horses. They are building temples. Their expansion NE is quite odd, although its easy to see the value in the incense (which will take a while to road to).

The iroquois have had major problems with expansion due to the fact they lived in a desert. They now have irrigation moving to some of their cities, which should speed up their expansion, should they still be interested. Their roading system could hardly be worse, having only one road between two cities. They ALMOST have horses.

Final: The romans are certainly the best off when it comes to industrial ability, and expanability. Their range of luxs will allow them to have cities bigger than their rivals. They will most likely never attack the french as their land isn't of much use to them, and they have closer rivals-- they might never be neighbors unless we fight the french to the bone. I'm still watching for that culture flip to Babylon.

	28-08-2002 02:36									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Epistax What I see in abanaba minor: The russians are doing very nicely. If they conjure up the will to build a temple, they will soon have coal... ...Rome has 4 large cities, coal, wine, soon silk, incense, ivory, and horses.

COAL!?!

Just to clear that up, Epi means Iron wherever he said Coal. No need to impeach him for playing ahead.



Yet.

	28-08-2002 02:52									#7
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lol I always do that. It looks more like coal than iron anyway! I find it odd that we can't see coal yet-- I mean it is a fine way to heat a building until fumes are discovered

	28-08-2002 03:40									#8
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coal wasnt used much before steam engines was it? they used peat and stuff instead.

anyway, there is some very very intelligent analysis on here. it doesnt hurt that GePap seems to have used the statistics
i think that this all brings up what is going to be a VITAL issue to Apolytonian security. right now the immediate threats are apparent and Rome is not among them; it's too early to act directly in regards to Rome, but it may be okay to do some indirect actions. subversively supporting the three weak civs here and there may help slow down rome until we've secured the north of our continent.

	28-08-2002 03:51									#9
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Peat IS coal, for all practical purposes - just a rather dirty form.

	28-08-2002 06:20									#10
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It does look as though Rome will be a force to contend with. Once we emerge from our current round of warfare, I think we will want to take measures to try to check Ceaser's growth -- albeit, indirect measures, at this point. Perhaps we could take steps to prop up the Iroquois and/or the Russians, if they survive -- at least by providing needed military resources.
If possible, we might consider cultivating Greece as a possible ally in the event of war with Rome. Most of those hopelites lie between us and Rome, and they'd make for a daunting gauntlet if Rome had to take on the Greeks before getting to us, or at least was unable to secure an RoP with Greece.

	28-08-2002 07:33									#11
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i think hes on to something...
now that germany is at war with us, greece is the only viable ally on the continent. we should cultivate them as an ally or at least maintain better relations with them than Rome does.

	28-08-2002 15:57									#12
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For the short term, I share the Epistax analysis; the flip of Cumae would deprive them of the episcoal (sort of iron specially recommended for building legions ) and their alternate source will be so long to connect that the Romans could start a war against the Babs. Also to be noted, the second iron is vulnerable. One more reason not to reduce excessively the French ; the iron behind Amiens should certainly be left at the disposal of the French.

On a longer term, would the Roman intend to conquer a portion of the Grand Bassin, they would have to cross so many mountains and hills that a defensive campaign could be efficiently organized. Alternatively, walking through Greece to reach the Grand Bassin would take ages if without ROP.

Therefore, as I see it, our efforts to control Abananaba Minor should be directed toward the French, diplomatically and materially.

	28-08-2002 19:21									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Reddawg i think hes on to something... now that germany is at war with us, greece is the only viable ally on the continent. we should cultivate them as an ally or at least maintain better relations with them than Rome does.

hi ,

if they are in a war they are less likely to built improvements , ... so we can dominate them later , ...

and we could use them for trade also , ...

yeah we should look at Greece as a posible friend , ..

have a nice day

	28-08-2002 20:03									#14
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT For the short term, I share the Epistax analysis; the flip of Cumae would deprive them of the episcoal (sort of iron specially recommended for building legions ) and their alternate source will be so long to connect that the Romans could start a war against the Babs.

While I am vey skeptical that Cumae will flip (Babylon is the Babs only big culture producing city, and its not that close to Cumae, which is producing its own culture), if there is a war between the Romans and Babs, it will be no contest- Romes legions will crush Babylon and gain all that territory.
so, again:
Only one city has flipped to the Babs, Smolensk, which was close by and owned by the heathe Russians, who were producing 0 culture. I doubt a bigger and more cultured city like Cumae will fall, and a war between Rome and Babylon can only benefit Rome.

I do agree that having france as a buffer state will be useful. At the same time, who's buffer state will it beome, ours or Rome's?

	28-08-2002 20:24									#15
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quote: Originally posted by GePap I do agree that having france as a buffer state will be useful. At the same time, who's buffer state will it become, ours or Rome's?

Technically, with our mountains we need less a buffer than the Romans ; but when they decide to visit us, a strong buffer of ours would make things more comfortable.

You may be right about Cumae, but I observed that it is closer to Babylone than to Rome.

Anyway, we need that kind of brainstorming ; doubt and uncertainty are not useless in preparing decisions.