29-08-2002 07:25									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Aro GhengisFarb: This is off topic, but not too much. The Mingapulco's map is here .

Woo Hoo! Thanks, Aro!

EDIT: Aww, shucks,it's got yellow lines on it and doesn't include the whole region, BHQ's outer city limits are cut out.

	29-08-2002 12:28									#32
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quote: If no one has an objection I'm going to give Captain tile #30 (valued at $1500) as his FULL compensation for previous service. It was the tile he told me to get for him depending on what people decided about the compensation package.

I fully agree. He deserves it.

	29-08-2002 12:55									#33
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by civman2000 I think #1 Trade Proposals is too strict and restrictive.

Civman: I respect your opinion of course but could you elaborate a bit on the strictness and restrictiveness of the trade proposal? You may have detected a weakness in the proposal that I missed.

	29-08-2002 17:17									#34
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Just for fun, the list of subProduct production:

001 Apolyton N (horse, grass, rd), 2 Grain, 2 Commerce
.......NYE

002 Apolyton NE (mined grass rd), 2 Grain, 2 Brick, 1 Commerce
.......Franses

003a Apolyton SW (forest, rd), 1 Venison, 2 Timber, 1 Commerce
.......Jonny

003b Apolyton W (forest, rd), 1 Venison, 2 Timber, 1 Commerce
.......Spiffor

004 Apolyton NW (grass), 2 Grain
.......GhengisFarb

005 Apolyton NW10 (mined forest rd), 2 Grain, 1 Brick, 1 Commerce
.......adaMada

006 Apolyton NW11 (mined grass rd), 2 Grain, 2 Brick, 1 Commerce
.......Kloreep


(A)-007 Apolyton NW12 (mined grass rd), $1000, 2 Grain, 1 Brick, 1 Commerce

008 Apolyton NE1 (mined grass rd), 2 Grain, 1 Brick, 1 Commerce
.......civman2000

009 Termina N (jungle), 1 Banana, 1 Commerce
.......Epistax

010 Termina NE (mined grass rd), 2 Grain, 1 Brick, 1 Commerce
.......Duddha

011 Termina E (mined grass rd), 2 Grain, 1 Brick, 1 Commerce
.......Rendelnep

012 Termina NW (jungle), 1 Banana
.......Epistax

013 Termina NE1 (jungle), 1 Banana, 1 Commerce
014 Termina NE2 (jungle), 1 Banana
.......UnOrtOdOx

015 Termina NE3 (jungle), 1 Banana
.......GhengisFarb

(B)-016 Tassagrad N (mined grass rd), $1000, 2 Grain, 1 Brick, 1 Commerce

(C)017 Tassagrad NE (jungle), $200, 1 Banana

018 Tassagrad SE (jungle), 1 Banana
.......Sheik

019 Tassagrad S (grass rd, mine?), 2 Grain, 1 Brick, 1 Commerce
.......skywalker

(D)-020 Tassagrad SW (mined grass rd), $1000, 2 Grain, 1 Brick, 1 Commerce

021 Tassagrad W (jungle), 1 Banana
.......Shiek

(E)-022 Tassagrad NW (jungle), $200, 1 Banana

023 Tassagrad NW10 (jungle), 1 Banana, 1 Commerce
024 Tassagrad NW11 (jungle), 1 Banana, 1 Commerce
025 Tassagrad NW12 (jungle), 1 Banana, 1 Commerce
.......jdd2007

026 BHQ N (mountain), 1 Stone
.......GhengisFarb

027 BHQ NE (jungle), 1 Banana
028 BHQ S (jungle), 1 Banana
.......Darkness' Edge

029 BHQ SW (mined grass rd river), 2 Grain, 1 Brick, 2 Commerce
.......Kramerman

030 BHQ W (mined grass rd river), 2 Grain, 1 Brick, 2 Commerce
.......Captain

031 BHQ NW (mined grass river), 2 Grain, 1 Brick, 2 Commerce
.......Nimitz

	29-08-2002 19:56									#35
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NOTE: If we go with proposal 2 there are currently 2 French and 4 Persian Laborers in need of a new home........

	29-08-2002 20:06									#36
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I think our trading system is flawed. If we're going to post our assets, let's just do it seperate from trades. Also, if you are buying things, shouldn't you, instead of saying that you're buying such and such at this price, just accept a sell offer? I think that everything should be sell offers and purchases. If you had 2 food you wanted to sell, you would post a thread saying that you offered to sell 2 shields at, say $45 each. If this was the first sell offer in the thread, you put a 1 in the title bar, and if it's the second, a 2, etc. THIS IS REQUIRED OR THE SELL OFFER IS INVALID. Then, if someone wants to buy those two food, they post "I accept offer #1" and put ~1 in the title bar. THIS IS REQUIRED OR THE SELL OFFER IS INVALID. If someone has accepted your sell offer, you cannot edit it. You cannot edit an acceptance post, either. The trade is now set in stone. Also, the restrictions for selling shields above market value are eliminated - just don't expect anyone to buy your stuff.

	29-08-2002 20:49									#37
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker I think our trading system is flawed. If we're going to post our assets, let's just do it seperate from trades. Also, if you are buying things, shouldn't you, instead of saying that you're buying such and such at this price, just accept a sell offer? I think that everything should be sell offers and purchases. If you had 2 food you wanted to sell, you would post a thread saying that you offered to sell 2 shields at, say $45 each. If this was the first sell offer in the thread, you put a 1 in the title bar, and if it's the second, a 2, etc. THIS IS REQUIRED OR THE SELL OFFER IS INVALID. Then, if someone wants to buy those two food, they post "I accept offer #1" and put ~1 in the title bar. THIS IS REQUIRED OR THE SELL OFFER IS INVALID. If someone has accepted your sell offer, you cannot edit it. You cannot edit an acceptance post, either. The trade is now set in stone. Also, the restrictions for selling shields above market value are eliminated - just don't expect anyone to buy your stuff.

See my replies in the other two threads it was posted in..........

	29-08-2002 21:42									#38
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You said to post it in the discussion threads... so I did.

	30-08-2002 00:53									#39
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I want to contiune playing .

The poll is up for almost 48 hours now. Only 6 players reacted. How long should we continue with the poll? I suppose we at least have to wait until part of the weekend has passed to give all players the chance to respond?

	30-08-2002 00:56									#40
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The problem with that poll is no one knows exactly what to do with it. Multiple choice usually doesn't take a written response.

	30-08-2002 01:17									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Epistax The problem with that poll is no one knows exactly what to do with it. Multiple choice usually doesn't take a written response.

You may well be right. But the first building poll learned that many non-players voted. So, I do not think we can use that method and be sure that we get the opinion of the players. If this does not work either...... what should we use?

	30-08-2002 01:22									#42
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We should hammer out a strong and comprehensive model for the entire thing before we start up again, that's what.

	30-08-2002 01:25									#43
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I disagree sky. We are in beta. We can drastically change rules from turn to turn, without (me) being held accountable.

	30-08-2002 01:30									#44
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Once we have the final version, will we start over?

	30-08-2002 01:32									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Epistax I disagree sky. We are in beta. We can drastically change rules from turn to turn, without (me) being held accountable.

Exactly, I think we should identify specific elements and test them in trading sessions so we can get a feel for how they work.

I had hoped to try the subProducts/alternate D:S sources the next trading session and then discuss changes/new elements for the next session and try something else.

I see options:

SubProducts/alternate D:S sources

Frances' Building Prop 1

SubProduct Building Prop 2

Any other options I missed?

	30-08-2002 01:36									#46
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My model is going to make subproducts an INTEGRAL part of the game.

	30-08-2002 05:31									#47
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I got my spreadsheet all ready to test the subProduct market all we need to test that in a session is an agreed on source for the shield Demand:Supply numbers.

Maybe we could add a bonus consumption to represent the war effort. Say each military unit consumes 2 food also. There are 5 spearmen stationed in our 4 cities so that would give us a demand of 38:8 and we produce 38 food.

	30-08-2002 05:47									#48
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That'd be great. We'd make a lot of money.

	30-08-2002 05:54									#49
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Franses: It is too restrictive to say that sales NEVER go for over the market value. If there is less supply than demand, there should be a good chance (using random # generator) of sales being successful. Also, you should be able to sell for specific values (as it is now) instead of always being the same. The current system is logical and seems to work well enough. The restrictions proposed are unrealistic and IMHO too strict. Except for sales not always being successful with S

	30-08-2002 05:58									#50
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Supply and demand alone should not set price.

Take real fresh caviar.
Supply? Actually quite high.
Demand? Low.
Price? Extreme.

Thus, caviar would have a high base rate where for everything we have right now, it is 100$.

	30-08-2002 06:02									#51
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So, which solutions exactly are we using?

	30-08-2002 06:42									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Epistax Supply and demand alone should not set price. Take real fresh caviar. Supply? Actually quite high. Demand? Low. Price? Extreme. Thus, caviar would have a high base rate where for everything we have right now, it is 100$.

I agree that's why I thought that subDemand variable would work. The one about the Beer and Bananas.

I'm to keep this locked to the three markets with simple variables that alter the premium on more prestigious products.

	30-08-2002 11:40									#53
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quote: Originally posted by civman2000 Franses: It is too restrictive to say that sales NEVER go for over the market value. If there is less supply than demand, there should be a good chance (using random # generator) of sales being successful.

I agree but none of the D:S proposals addresses this.

quote: Also, you should be able to sell for specific values (as it is now) instead of always being the same.

I agree but as mentioned before: If all players had the time to alter their deals continuously, the price in the current system would be the same for all also. This final price would be exactly equal to the latest default price and in case of oversupply to $1 (if players are out of stockpiling capacity). So, the current system is unfair to those that do not have the time to post regularly and has the same result as in the current proposal except that it takes a lot more time to get there.

	30-08-2002 12:00									#54
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker So, which solutions exactly are we using?

As it stands now all favour to introduce the building proposal. Other buildings may (and I am sure will) be added later.

As to the D:S issue. Two nobles support solution 1 and two nobles support solution 2. So the votes are inconclusive. If no more nobles vote I suggest to introduce solution 2. Just because this is a Beta.

As to the trade proposal. Two nobles support the solution. One is opposed to it and one proposed an alternative. So, a slight preference for implementing the proposal but not really conclusive. Again, because this is a Beta I suggest to try it in the next trade session.

Is this fair? In case no more nobles vote tonight, I suggest to start the next trading session tomorrow morning (September 1, 10.00 hours) and end the session on September 3, 10.00 hours. All times are in GMT.

	30-08-2002 12:06									#55
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Trade. Solution 1. Yup.

Buildings. Solution 1. Yup

Supply/Demand.
Solution 1. OK by me.
Solution 2. Nope.
Solution 3. I prefer this to give it a try.

	30-08-2002 12:10									#56
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Lost my post, so I will try again.

GhengisFarb,

If your D:S solution is implemented (Solution 2) the base supply for food, shields and commerce goes down drastically. To keep the bank and bakery buildings into balance, the base supply for bread and loans should go down to. I suggest to use 1 as the base supply for bread and loans. I think that is in line with your solution. Or did I miss something here?

	30-08-2002 16:57									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Franses If your D:S solution is implemented (Solution 2) the base supply for food, shields and commerce goes down drastically. To keep the bank and bakery buildings into balance, the base supply for bread and loans should go down to. I suggest to use 1 as the base supply for bread and loans. I think that is in line with your solution. Or did I miss something here?

Bread receives a bonus and is tied to the same base demand as all food. In my proposal we never expand past 3 markets, simply allow some products to sell at a premium. Your proposal expands our system to 5 markets.

I suggest we try the market of Proposal 2, using the same shield supply and demand. And the building list from Proposal 1 with the following changes to make it work with Proposal 2:

quote: Originally posted by Franses STOREHOUSE (Costs 2 shields/labor) stores up to 20 commodities (including food). TAVERN (Costs 3 shields/labor) allows you to sell up to 2 food per turn at a 50% bonus. SHOPPE (Costs 3 shields/labor) allows you to sell up to 2 commerce per turn at a 50% bonus. WORKSHOP (Costs 4 shields/labor) allows you to sell up to 2 shields per turn at a 50% bonus. BAKERY (Cost 10 shields/labor) converts up to 2 food into 2 bread (1 food into 1 bread). Bread sells at a 100% bonus Bread can not be stored. Bread sells in the FOOD market. The city a bakery is build in must be specified BREWERY (Cost 15 shields/labor) converts up to 2 grain per labor used into beer(1 grain into 1 beer). Beer sells at a 150% bonus. Beer can be stored. Beer can be sold in the FOOD or COMMERCE markets. To build a building in a city you must hire at least one labor from that city. Additional labor may be brought in from any noble's estate, but the first labor must be from the city or local authorities will not allow any construction on your building to take place. The only building that should be "useable" the turn its built is Storehouse. All others technically use the turn to alter/sell products and should be in existence at the beginning of the turn to generate benefits.

Also, we might want to PM each other on the starting D:S numbers to make sure we both understand where the numbers are coming from before we open the next trading session.

	30-08-2002 19:36									#58
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Ghengis, this is no answer to my question .

I do not agree with your adaptations. The Bakery and Bank were designed to solve oversupply and to convert food and commerce into something else. Your adaptations take that effect away. Since the nobles voted in favor of this proposal we should keep it that way for at least until the next building proposal.

	30-08-2002 20:28									#59
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When I signed on as Banker there were 3 Markets not 5.

This lag in the playing of the game and the refusal to fix the system has greatly diminished any desire I have to play it anymore. I'm seriously considering pulling out of any involvement. I need to know if there is someone willing to take over the role of Banker and manage all the estates that are currently left in my care if we continue down this path.

I will give a list of the management conditions/instructions for each.

I find it very sad that the players refuse to compensate Captain for his involvement in this game.

	30-08-2002 22:02									#60
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Trade. Solution 1. Yes.

Buildings. Solution 1. Yes

Supply/Demand.
Solution 1. If the others don't work.
Solution 2. yes.
Solution 3. second choise.