30-08-2002 22:16									#61
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I am very sorry to hear that you consider pulling out of the game. This would really be a great loss.

quote: I find it very sad that the players refuse to compensate Captain for his involvement in this game.

Only Skywalker opposed your proposal and he did not know about all the effort Captain put into this. adaMada and me supported it. The other nobles did not respond but I have the feeling that many, if not all would support the idea of compensating Captain in the way you proposed.

From the poll you held earlier 5 out 11 voters even supported this idea for all Government Agents to follow.

	30-08-2002 22:29									#62
	Suffering from ads?

Well as I said, more people would appear active if they had any clue how to respond to this poll. I certify this poll is quite dead.

So the question: Which proposals do we start the next turn with? Anyone got an answer? (I don't want a vote, I wont a decision)

	30-08-2002 22:53									#63
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

See my post a couple of posts back and add the votes of Notyoueither and Nimitz which further support the conclusions I draw.

To make it easy I update it here:

As it stands now all favour to introduce the building proposal. Other buildings may (and I am sure will) be added later.

As to the D:S issue. Two nobles support solution 1, three nobles support solution 2 and one supports solution 3. So a slight preference for solution 2. If no more nobles vote I suggest to introduce solution 2.

As to the trade proposal. Four nobles support the solution. One is opposed to it and one proposed an alternative. So, a clear preference for implementing the proposal.

Is this fair? In case no more nobles vote tonight, I suggest to start the next trading session tomorrow morning (September 1, 10.00 hours) and end the session on September 3, 10.00 hours. All times are in GMT.

Last edited by Franses on 30-08-2002 at 23:03

	30-08-2002 23:16									#64
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

SIMPLE YES OR NO ANSWER (IF NO STATE WHAT CHANGES WOULD HAVE TO BE MADE FOR YOU TO SAY YES)

Would you be willing to play the next trading session with the following rules:


Four Markets with the following Demand:Supply ratios:

1)Food Market
Demand(2xPop of the cities in the Region(Apolyton, Termina, Tassagrad, BHQ, and Port Rouge)
Supply(Food generated by city tiles (10) + Food offered for sale by Nobles)

All food offered for sale but not sold (due to prices/lack of demand) will be purchased at 50% of the final D:S price by the government for the war effort.


2)Shield Market
STAYS THE SAME



3)Commerce Market
Demand(Per Capita Income(Currently 3)xPop)
Supply(Commerce generated by city tiles (8) + Commerce offered for sale by Nobles)


4)Labor Market(Individual per city) Must hire first labor for any building/operation project in a city from that city. Additional Labor may come from Noble's lands.
Demand(Labor demands of Nobles)
Supply(Pop of city and additional labor from Nobles' vassals)


Each noble has 1 base Labor representing common vassals. Vassals consume 1 food for every 2 vassals. Odd numbered vassals do not consume any extra food as the vassals simply have to make do with less food. (Examples: 1 vassal consumes no food, 2 vassals consume 1 food, 3 vassals consume 1 food, etc.)




The following Buildings

STOREHOUSE {Can be built on Noble's Estate OR in a city} (Costs 2 shields/labor) stores up to 20 commodities (including food). NOTE: you may store up to 10 nonfood items(shields/commerce) in addition to/instead of this 20 storage.

TAVERN {city only} (Costs 3 shields/labor) allows you to sell food at a 50% bonus. The number of food you may sell at that bonus is equal to the the city Pop of the city the workshop is located in. (Example: the building is located in Apolyton whose Pop is 4. The bonus applies to 4 units of the product.)

SHOPPE {city only} (Costs 3 shields/labor) allows you to sell commerce at a 50% bonus. The number of commerce you may sell at that bonus is equal to the the city Pop of the city the workshop is located in. (Example: the building is located in Apolyton whose Pop is 4. The bonus applies to 4 units of the product.)

WORKSHOP {city only} (Costs 4 shields/labor) allows you to sell shields at a 50% bonus. The number of shields you may sell at that bonus is equal to the the city Pop of the city the workshop is located in. (Example: the building is located in Apolyton whose Pop is 4. The bonus applies to 4 units of the product.)


To build a building in a city you must hire at least one labor from that city. Additional labor may be brought in from any noble's estate, but the frist labor must be from the city or local authorities will not allow any construction on your building to take place.

The only building that will be "useable" the turn its built is Storehouse. All others technically use the turn to alter/sell products and should be in existence at the beginning of the turn to generate benefits.

Last edited by GhengisFarb on 31-08-2002 at 03:23

	30-08-2002 23:17									#65
	Support Apolyton

I'm for solution #3 for D:S over others (even if I like the buildings) :
Most people posting here aren't conscious several $gamers do this casually. Getting more money with buildings (i.e involvement) is a good thing, but we shouldn't forget those who can't / don't want to learn every building, and the bonuses it brings.

The simple way (selling his grain/bricks/timber/commerce etc.) must remain viable. solution #3 will raise the price of basic commodities drastically, and will give more money to thos who don't play much (the buildings will bring even more money to those who play much).

Also, I think we should polish "trade proposals solution #1". For the same reason : complexity. I like the idea of people selling at market price, without having to look several times a day if they'll sell or not.
I also like the idea of minimal prices. But I don't think the D:S should be adjusted when some goods aren't sold because the market price is too low.

In Franses' example, the market price goes from $50 to $57. The one who set a minimal price at $70 still doesn't sell. OK, no problem. But what if he had set a minimal price at $55 ? he would refuse to sell at $50, which lowers the supply, which raises the price... Then, he accepts to sell, which raises supply and lowers the price... infinite loop.
Maybe we can adjust the market price when some nobles refuse to sell bc. market price isn't high enough. But should the modified price rise enough, these people still don't sell. This way we avoid the infinte loop.

Buildings : fine.

	30-08-2002 23:21									#66
	Support Apolyton

Ghengis :
YES to your poll. Let's give it a try. I suggest we try Franses' solutions next turn, and yours the turn after, to compare which work best.

	30-08-2002 23:24									#67
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

yes

	30-08-2002 23:28									#68
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Ghengis : YES to your poll. Let's give it a try. I suggest we try Franses' solutions next turn, and yours the turn after, to compare which work best.

Sounds good for next turn we use the post above (which is a watered down version of what has been offered)



Second turn we use Frances Bakery and trading options (anything I missed)

I suggest we "loan" members bakeries and banks so they get a feel for how they work.



Third (& Fourth) turn we try my proposal with the subProducts and subDemands.

Suggest we "loan" a few buildings for members to get a feel for the Finished Goods system.

The reason I suggest two turns for the second proposal is that we will probably need the first one to tweak the percentages and bonuses to get something everyone can live with.

	30-08-2002 23:54									#69
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

We finally come to a conclusion and we start a new poll????

I am really confused now. I suppose this also means we will not start a new turn tomorrow so I will stop preparing it.

	31-08-2002 01:55									#70
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

yes

	31-08-2002 03:30									#71
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

So far:
Spiffor..........YES
Epistax.........YES
Francis.........NO?
civman2000...YES
GhengisFarb..YES

Miscellaneous Responses
Kloreep's on vacation.
UnOrthOdox was willing to try any of the options.

	31-08-2002 03:34									#72
	Remove this text

Guys, I will not be available tomorrow (one of the reasons I tried to start the next trading session early tomorrow morning). If a market assessment has to be prepared I will not be able to do that before sunday afternoon.

The new poll defined by Ghengis lacks the conversion buildings as well as the solution of the trading issue. The original building solution including these buildings was widely supported (6 nobles out of 7). The trading solution was supported by 4 out of 6. In my opinion this was a correct decision by the nobles since they address essential problems that we encountered in the first turns.

Having thought a while about why the proposal of Ghengis received the support it already has, I concluded that it is in the interest of the game that I resign as Market Assessor. I want to stress that this decision is taken without any hard feelings to anyone and certainly not toward Ghengis (I mention this explicitly because some might conclude this from the above).

If you limit yourself to the task itself, the job of a Market Assessor is not to hard at all so I sincerely hope one of you will decide to take over before I return.

	31-08-2002 03:40									#73
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I support any change and test, as long as it's not silly (such as increasing the cost of a tavern to 15,... grrr)

I'd vote yes for both.

Now lets do it already. What's "it"? I don't care.

	31-08-2002 03:47									#74
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Epistax I support any change and test, as long as it's not silly (such as increasing the cost of a tavern to 15,... grrr) I'd vote yes for both. Now lets do it already. What's "it"? I don't care.

Hopefully Francis will come back, but right now I just want to move foward (like Epistax) so I'm announcing intentions to start Trading Session 4 tomorrow morning (in about 12-14 hours) with the options (YES/NO) stated above unless someone (important) stresses extreme objections.

(Don't ask about the "(important)" clause, I'm sure most people understand what it means........ )

	31-08-2002 19:17									#75
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I like building prices the way they are (in this change). They're a LOT easier to build.