06-12-2000 19:59									#1
	Questions questions Got spare money?

Ok how does one know how many shots it would take to wipe out the troops in a city? Like can you know for sure if the city is empty? Any help?
I was playing a player the other day and he knew how many shots it took exactly. He would fire his guns until the last troop was destroyed then land a troop in the city to take it over. He did not over shoot or under shoot the last shot wiped out the last troop and he moved in. he did this 5 for 5 when i asked how he knew he did not respond so i am asking anyone for help. Oh ps when i did ask him about it his ability to guess 2, 4 , 5, whatever number of troops that were in the cities seemed to suffer as he no longer was able to do it again and lost a few troops guessing. also i asked for a saved game file for viewing he refused and got upset hummmm.

Any suggestions is there a trick i am missing?



[This message has been edited by blackice (edited December 06, 2000).]

	07-12-2000 10:01									#2
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I don't know. But you can test it by setting up a scenario and placing a number of units in a city and then placing opposing cannons right outside the city, and start bombarding.

If you don't know how to set up a scenario, they have detailed instructions on the "read-me" files that come with the 1.2 patch.

Barring that, you can create a 3 human player Hot-Seat game, (where you play all three players), and just hit next a bunch of times until you get one player with cannons. March the cannons to the test city and start blasting. Save the game before you blast and try different numbers of units in the city while testing.

This should answer your questions. Good luck!

quinns

	07-12-2000 00:17									#3
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You shouldn't know. That's that simple.

If you knew whether all defenders were killed or not, there would never be any challenge in the attack.

This is not supposed to be Ludo or Chess, where you exactly know what will happend.

Sorry.

Edit: Your opponent might use a facility, that we do not use in PBEM games.
[This message has been edited by TheBirdMan (edited December 06, 2000).]

	07-12-2000 02:08									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Cut the guy a break BirdMan.

Chess? Do you know exactly everything that is going to happen in a chess match? You must be an excellent chess player that should consider playing Garry Kasporov, (or the new Champ, whoever he is), for the world championship!

The fact is, if someone else is using "common" knowledge techniques to get an advantage, that knowledge shouldn't be ignored, (as in "you shouldn't know"). That "common knowledge" is all Blackice is asking about.

Go ahead and run the test I mentioned, Blackice. Get any "fair" advantage you can to beat the person who is not sharing his knowledge of the game. But I would suggest to get to his cities first and put him on his heels so that you don't have to worry about this "guessing" game.

quinns

	07-12-2000 03:49									#5
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Hey thanks for the replys people and merry christmas

Well i will try that suggestion. And i agree it seems fishy that he knew exactly how many shots vs troops.
What the heck is a facility?
Yes he came out of no where building the edisons lab before either of the other players even had gun powder

Off to learn more thanks again

Blackice

[This message has been edited by blackice (edited December 06, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by blackice (edited December 06, 2000).]

	09-12-2000 10:07									#6
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Alright Blackice! Good luck in your testing, and Merry Christmas to you, also!

quinns

	08-12-2000 23:19									#7
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The "common knowlegde" that I refer to is cheating.

Just playing the next turns (gives you knowlegde of the other players as if they were your civ - or more simple just replaying the turn.

That's why I wrote as I wrote. I think his opponents are doing something I wouldn't do (Ohhh glad to be in Denmark, laywers can't do anything about my "statements" )

Edit: It was not Blackice I was - what are you calling it? "efter" = after????.


[This message has been edited by TheBirdMan (edited December 08, 2000).]

	08-12-2000 23:30									#8
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Hi Birdman,

I think Blackice was playing an internet game, not a pbem game. So I don't know how his opponent could cheat in an internet game, (though, I'm sure some geek could figure out a way). I just don't understand how anyone can get satifaction from winning a game by cheating. It's beyond me.

Quinns

	08-12-2000 23:53									#9
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"They" did in AOE (I played a lot of online 2 years ago on the Zone). I was then ranked between 600 and 700 and couldn't get higher.

And that was ok - until I read, that xx and yy was cheating using a "facility" in the game, that should not have been there (that closed by a patch, but then it was too late - and new cheats were found).

And then I simply stopped playing the game..... you could not tell if anyone was cheating.

	09-12-2000 00:04									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

That sucks so bad!

You know, a couple years back me and a friend of mine were playing 2 vs 2 on AOE and we thrashed the opponents (apparently they were rookies).

They left the game saying "nice game cheaters". It took some of the thrill of victory away because now the person who lost to you thought you had cheated just because you played much better than him.

My friend and me were confused we were like "wait. how can we have cheated? There is no cheat to AOE!" .. But they were gone. I never found out there were cheats for AOE online until now. (since you just mentioned it). I just thought those 2 were sore loosers!

You know something like this could also happen in PBEM. ie. if one player seems to play really well and seems to get his strategy super well, people will wonder if he is cheating. Its quite possible he is. But also possible he isn't. This cheating business just sucks..


What about those bloody video drivers for looking through walls in 3d Shooters??!! Bloody Hell!!

	09-12-2000 00:37									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

The cheat was in fact simple.

Start to build something, then disband it before it was finished. Continued use of the cancelbutton several times before the "building" actually disappear gave you half your "investments" each time you cancelled the building.

All "income" was depending how quich you could press the button before the building was gone.

1 time = what the game was supposed to give (half).

2 times = what you had invested (normal cheat).

3 and more = + 50% for every time you was able to press the button before the building was "gone". The cheat start with all buildings made of wood. But it spread to other later.

	09-12-2000 20:29									#12
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You know, I don't think it is so much, how one cheats, or the ease of how one cheats, it is the WILL of the cheater to cheat. Anyone has the ABILITY to cheat, but to actually seek out a way to cheat, and then do it, takes a pretty messed up individual. Maybe they are frustrated individuals who really desire to be "code breakers" for some country's Intelligence Agency. I've seen them before, they will spend days upon days playing with some computer code to see if they can make it do something it wasn't designed to do. Then, when they do, they get a big grin on their face. Yes, I think that's the mentality. They wish to be recognized as "The World's Great Computer Code Breakers". I guess it takes all kinds to make the world go around. Maybe they practice their skills in the gaming world because it's a relatively safe venue. Personally, I wish they would just get a life, or join the FBI Cyber Division and put their skills to some good use by trying to stop the bad guys!

[This message has been edited by quinns (edited December 10, 2000).]

	09-12-2000 23:40									#13
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Lol....

Thinking about it, that is one of the things I like about CTP PBEM.... Any idiot can cheat if he wants to.... Its no challenge... It's not cool, and if you do it you're just a bad sport.... end of story.

If it were harder, the geeks might get a kick out of doing it...

	10-12-2000 00:10									#14
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Good point, Stavros. Maybe that's why it seems that the average age of CTP PBEM is about 25 instead of 12, (it is puzzling how the advertisers to the Apolyton Forum haven't picked up on this yet). It's kind of refreshing, really, to see a "game" bulletin board where every other word is not !@#$ this or !@#$ that.

	10-12-2000 00:53									#15
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Quinns - you know very well that is only us two, that keep the average age up (well and Franses of course, he is our "oldest".)

Edit: And your right about the ..... and the .... (I don't want to see younger CTP players learning too much ).

If I was not used to "guess" abbv. from my normal work, I couldn't read what my oldest child writes on the chat. She would not even get a 5 out of 13 (and that's bad) if she wrote the the same way in her school.
[This message has been edited by TheBirdMan (edited December 09, 2000).]

	10-12-2000 17:27									#16
	Got spare money?

Maybe I’m naïve but I like to think Apolyton is a cheat free zone.

If you have a cheating nature in CTP you can exercise it with slavers, spies, lawyers etc.. all within the rules of the game.

As to the average age thing that’s suddenly cropped up, I’m 28 and I always kind of assumed everyone here was around the same age. I’ve never been embarrassed to admit that I like computer games, why should I.

I just can’t wait till I’m 70, Call to Power X, that’s going to be one hell of a game.

	10-12-2000 21:27									#17
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WAY OFF TOPIC (but ties in somewhere along the line):

I had an ICQ chad with a 15 year old Israeli girl (woman?) a couple of weeks ago, and when she found out how old I was (31), she asked, "don't you have more important things to do when you're 31?"

It made me think (but only for a second, don't want to overdo it )

I replied that I did indeed have more important things to do, but each of us finds our own form or recreation, and this is one of mine....

(vectoring ever so slightly back on topic):

I don't know that turn based games have so much appeal to youth. They ARE slow and cumbersome, and do require the patience that is often only aquired through the monotony of the ageing. I'd be interested to learn how old our co-players are.... Might even be a nice topic for a poll....

	10-12-2000 23:07									#18
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Very easy Stavros. Just visit the tread

CtP2-General, How old are u?


Many has "revealed" their age and interests - including me

	11-12-2000 00:58									#19
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Hey big Christmas grin

What is PHEM???
How do i join?

I would like to give it a try


Black

	11-12-2000 07:16									#20
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PBEM stands for play by e-mail. It's a good way to play CTP. Gives you some time to think about the turn. You only need to spend about 15 minutes every day or so,(more if you wish to play in more that one game). There are always new games opening up and replacements are always needed. You'll need the CTP 1.2 patch to play PBEM (that you can download from DOWNLOADS on Apolyton's CTP site).

If you wish, you can become rated quite easily. Just tell us what your best defeat was on solo, (versus the A/I): Chieftain, Warlord, Prince, King, Emperor, or Deity.

	12-12-2000 01:37									#21
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Hi quinns

Ok that is easy sort of do you need the score?

I have never finished a game to apha centari in Deity mode with the ai (solo).

The ai is usually down to 1 city and i hang there till i get bored.

I have played this game since the board game first came out hehehe showing my age

I change the settings offen to make it a challenge but
in the end and very early in the game most often the ai is done.

I have been playing online for some time now and have learned even more ways of kicking ai's butt. heh

So anything else how do i get started

Merry Christmas

Black


[This message has been edited by blackice (edited December 11, 2000).]

	12-12-2000 01:51									#22
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Sorry Blackice, you're in the wrong forum. This is Call to Power, not Alpha Centauri, (but maybe we'll start the same type of rating system there, later ).

If you meant Call to Power, then ... it sounds like you are a Deity level player. Yes -- I, personally, would consider a game where your Power Graph Line is at least 4 times higher than the next highest civilization to be a "victory". Believe me, you will get plenty of challenge in PBEM. There are some very good players here. (A/I stands for Always Inept . )

(I know what you mean about tedious endings ... the last settler runs and hides on an island, then you have to wait for Marines to win the game.)

	12-12-2000 10:36									#23
	Remove this text

Hahaha shows you how long it's been since I won in space

Yes it is CTP

Good to hear I enjoy a challedge

Yes endings like that are.. er boring and far to common. I usually find the island city circle it with a few layers of s.o.l. keep a race alive and get bored for the next week trying to find the worm hole lol

Well lets get started maybe you would like a game to test my newbie skills?

	12-12-2000 18:45									#24
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Quinns, nice to see you are attrackting people to the ranking system.
Blackice: Alpha Centauri AI sucks hard. I gave AC a try, just of interest, and noticed several things I liked there, but the AI is so amazingly easy, that after a bit more than a week of practice I could easily beat the hardest AI.
When I posted this on one of AC forums, one guy said:
I guess you are a Civ player, aren't you?
Well, ok quinns, add him to the listings as the Deity player (I approve him).
But, I don't like you (and not only you) criticsing AI of CTP. I can't beat it at hardest, and feel pretty well with it, and on the one hand this is good, as if I want some real challenge, I set up a new game with King / Emperor level and get challenge.

------------------
Solver - http://www.aok.20m.com

	13-12-2000 02:00									#25
	Remove this text

Hi,

I just wrote to Blackice's personal email about it, but I thought I better add something here. I'm new to PBEM, though I've been playing CIV: CTP since it was released! (Err ... not the same game, you understand...)

I am really eager to play against some good opponents, so without appearing to have puppy-dog enthusiasm

CAN I PLAY, PLEASE?

Huh? Huh? Can I?

------------------

	13-12-2000 10:20									#26
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Well Oliver and i are in my (our) first game.
Thanks to all for your help hope we will meet.

merry Christmas


Pete

	14-12-2000 01:16									#27
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Well, have a good match then! And Merry Christmas to you also!

Quinns

	14-12-2000 10:25									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

say no more

Ty

Merry Christmas

bpd

	16-12-2000 06:01									#29
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Hm, coming back to an old topic you guys discussed. According to Birdman, I am the oldest. That sure is a strange thing to read. I never expected that I would ever hear that in my whole live. But this is it. I am "old".

Do I care? No, I do not. I cared when I became 22. That's when you get old for the first time. After that awfull experience I didn't care anymore.

As far as us (old people) playing is concerned. Trust me, you always will remain a child. Why not admit it and have fun.

Hope to still play with you guys if we are in our old peoples home. At least we will then have sufficient time to even end a CIV PBEM game in a couple of months.

Franses

PS: May not come back here anymore. Probably won't find the thread (that's one of the nasty things of getting old) or have the time for it (the old fashioned reason).

	22-12-2000 00:31									#30
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Don't think your are old Franses - your age is just 3 (a few months, 4) years more than my.

No - I did it too "get" others out of the bush. And it worked! Well we still have to see the first "50"er yet.

And now to something completely different:

We all know, that one or two players are "leaving" for a week or two (or three) without any explanation. Could-should we ask some (like BlackIce or Oliver to be some "permanent" subs(?) to those, that are just gone?

Not in the rated games - there we has rules. But in the games started earlier. If the "original" player later comes with objections - we could just post him: Why did you stay away, if you was interested in this game?

Provocation, I know.