28-08-2002 23:43									#31
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Intentions have everything to do with whether or not an action is evil.

	28-08-2002 23:48									#32
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger Intentions have everything to do with whether or not an action is evil.

Which is exactly why I wouldn't put Hitler at the top of the list.

	28-08-2002 23:59									#33
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Bodycounts alone are too simplistic. I propose a weighting system along these lines.

1- Modern technology allows killing to be easier, both in terms of ease of action and trauma to the killer. Therefore greater weighting is given to pre-modern era killers.

2- Killing for pleasure or arbitrary killing gets greater weighting that killing in wars or ideological/religious grounds.

3- Personal slaying by the leader gets far greater weighting than killing by his armies/secret police.

4- Extra bonus points for obviously pervy aspects to the killing.

I'll go for Ivan the Terrible, but there's some tough competition.

	29-08-2002 00:02									#34
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I think Hitler was perfectly sane. He just has some self esteem issues and fear of other humans. I think a good psychologist could have fixed him up.

	29-08-2002 00:03									#35
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quote: Dissident: On a semi-related note I believe CBS is showing a series on Hitler's early life. There are already protests. For some people they cannot fathom that Hitler is not the most evil man ever to exist.

Irrespective how you rate Hitler, we have no guarantee that in future there never will be someone who is even worse. Therefore we [/I] have[I] to learn about his life (and I wish I had learned more about Stalin!) to recognize similar threads in future. The evil leaders study his life and learn from him. We have to do the same to be on the guard.
Btw. Hitler was quite intelligent. At School, I've read some articles about his youth, and there was a teacher of him who said something of "very intelligent pupil but unable to control himself". He was intelligent but misleaded, which made him blind in some spots (He couldn't imagine that the British wouldn't fight for the Germanic cause and therefore let escape the British expedition forces from Dunkerque).

quote: Intentions have everything to do with whether or not an action is evil.

If I kill you to save you every sort of future pain, my intention may be good but I'd go to prison anyway. So I disagree in this point. Hitler wasn't plainly too stupid to see that Jews have a right to live.

	29-08-2002 00:11									#36
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quote: If I kill you to save you every sort of future pain, my intention may be good but I'd go to prison anyway.

People who aren't evil go to jail all of the time. Killing somebody by accident can get you a couple years (or more) in prison depending on the circumstances.

	29-08-2002 00:14									#37
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger Intentions have everything to do with whether or not an action is evil.

I disagree. The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

	29-08-2002 00:16									#38
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I disagree. The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

Well sure, nothing makes you feel like more of a useless pathetic dumbass than having good intentions go awry. If that ain't Hell, then nothing is. Having bad intentions succeed is far more rewarding.

Hell isn't other people. It's yourself.

	29-08-2002 00:17									#39
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There are too many rulers to figure out who was the worst. Perhaps the worst ruler of all was some psychopathic monster in Eastern Island, who helped bring their society down. Or some megalomanic in Crete at the time of Knossos who had people roasted alive for feats, only we can read linear A so we eill never know.

	29-08-2002 00:17									#40
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Yes, but St Michael doesn't play Judge on earth. Or am I stating the obvious.

	29-08-2002 00:19									#41
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loinburger, maybe I should be clearer: I'd get the same sentence as someone who kills for hate or greed. All of them are intentional. The kind of intention doesn't make the difference.
Btw. to spare future pain was the argument of the Nazi to kill thousands of physically and mentally handicapped people.

	29-08-2002 00:19									#42
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quote: Originally posted by GePap There are too many rulers to figure out who was the worst. Perhaps the worst ruler of all was some psychopathic monster in Eastern Island, who helped bring their society down. Or some megalomanic in Crete at the time of Knossos who had people roasted alive for feats, only we can read linear A so we eill never know.

Thanks for your input. If you look at other threads you may find many other bonfires to piss on.

	29-08-2002 00:21									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Adalbertus loinburger, maybe I should be clearer: I'd get the same sentence as someone who kills for hate or greed. All of them are intentional. The kind of intention doesn't make the difference.

What kind of legal system do you call that? One where the expression "mitigation" is unknown, presumably?

	29-08-2002 00:24									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Adalbertus loinburger, maybe I should be clearer: I'd get the same sentence as someone who kills for hate or greed. All of them are intentional. The kind of intention doesn't make the difference.

The law doesn't always consider intentions (although first-degree murder is always worse than second-degree, so there's at least one exception), but morality is all about intentions. Law and morality aren't equivalent, although they tend to overlap quite a bit.

Hell, the Nazis weren't breaking any German laws, but that doesn't mean that they weren't evil.

	29-08-2002 00:26									#45
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Ming the evil Banana.

	29-08-2002 00:29									#46
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Ivan IV (the terrible) and his friends released bears on small villages for fun. That sounds pretty evil to me.

I think Reagan or Kissinger would make good American additions to the list. They weren't homicidal manaics, but they brought untold suffering upon the peoples of the world.

	29-08-2002 00:41									#47
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No chegitz, Stalin killed more, it is a historic fact which I learned in my history lessons. He idn't had to kill half of Soviet Union. He just killed that much people on war. Also, he killed more than 10 millions civilians and exiled many times more millions including some whole nations. And taken wealth from everyone who had "too much" of it. So, it is definitely Stalin was the worst

By the way, Hitler is "man to hate" even more than Stalin. I heard much less bad stories about Stalin than ones about Hitler. Some of stories about Hitler are simply untrue and totally illogical, like that he was Jew or gay (it is good no one says he was black just whitened his skin)...

I however agree Lanin, like Marx wasn't that bad to be on this list. Lenin was bad, but if we include him here than we should also include other dictators like Miloshevich or mullah Mohamet Omar. Lenin (and Marx) just created an ideology which was later used for bad purposes by Stalin.

	29-08-2002 00:43									#48
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Adalbertus, Hitler's IQ was 141

	29-08-2002 00:49									#49
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger The law doesn't always consider intentions (although first-degree murder is always worse than second-degree, so there's at least one exception), but morality is all about intentions. Law and morality aren't equivalent, although they tend to overlap quite a bit. Hell, the Nazis weren't breaking any German laws, but that doesn't mean that they weren't evil.

Also, intentions are almost always considered in courts of law, at least in the U.S. This usually comes to play in sentencing, wherein the judge/jury is given the discretion to impose more lenient sentences based on the circumstances of the crime and the intent/mindset of the perpetrator.

It is a fairly common standard that intent does indeed matter where wrongful acts are concerned.

	29-08-2002 00:50									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident I think Hitler was perfectly sane. He just has some self esteem issues and fear of other humans. I think a good psychologist could have fixed him up.

I disagree, I think he was certainly half-mad, if not more.

	29-08-2002 00:53									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Sonic No chegitz, Stalin killed more, it is a historic fact which I learned in my history lessons.

And your history lessons aren't the least little biased? Lithuania has absolutely no reason to hate Stalin, right?

Boris, I don't see any evidence of Hitler being mad or even half-mad, until the very end.

	29-08-2002 01:14									#52
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We have the same reason to hate Hitler, he was also occupied us and killed almost all Jews in Lithuania. Remember, there was about 7% of Jews here before WW2 and (almost) none after. By the way, numbers can't be biased. We are a democratic country after all.

	29-08-2002 01:18									#53
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No you aren't. You've disenfranchised a huge part of your population soley for the crime of being Russian.

	29-08-2002 01:22									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Ron Jeremy Thanks for your input. If you look at other threads you may find many other bonfires to piss on.

poor form… poor form… dissapointing…
sarcasm is…

	29-08-2002 01:39									#55
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chegitz, please learn history first. Sorry if you consider this an insult, but it is really stupid to think that Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia are the same country.

In Lithuania every Russian who lived here go citizenship. Every. Some didn't wanted to live here themselves, but mostly wanted and they got Lithuanian passports. So what you posted is a troll.

In Latvia (and it isn't the same as Lithuania) Russians (well, most of them) really didn't got citizenship and had a conflict with Russia about that.
Estonia stood somewhere in between Lithuania and Latvia in this case.

We could argue if Latvian position was good or bad but Lithuania didn't done it, this is a fact.

Thinkig "all laws which aplies in one Baltic state aplies automatically in all others" is plain wrong. This is the same as to think United Kingdom and France laws are the same because their geographical position and place in EU.

	29-08-2002 02:11									#56
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quote: Originally posted by monolith94 poor form… poor form… dissapointing… sarcasm is…

.....the appropriate response to posts effectively saying "This discussion is pointless because someone no-one's ever heard of may have been the most evil".

	29-08-2002 02:21									#57
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Sonic,
sorry to scratch a bit on your national pride, but even in Germany (which is a bit closer than the US) the Baltic countries are very often mentioned in one breath. But even if (IIRC) the languages are very different, all three countries shared more or less the same fate. OTOH, it should be clear that the laws of one country don't automatically extend to another --
I've never seen an investigation of Hitler's IQ but I don't wonder about this result. His defects were somewhere else.

Chegitz,
As I mentioned, Hitler always had difficulties to master himself, and at least after the initial successes in the war he had a sort of superiority complex (take it as a sign that he dismissed his best generals and took the command to himself). Also he was convinced that the Jews were responsible for everything bad (especially his personal fate, which was not always very brilliant) - probably a successful (auto)suggestion.

	29-08-2002 02:21									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Sonic chegitz, please learn history first. Sorry if you consider this an insult, but it is really stupid to think that Lithuania, Latvia

I don't think they're one country, I just get which one did what mixed up sometimes.

	29-08-2002 02:23									#59
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Of course, I would never vote for them, but... why is Clinton in and GW Bush out?

	29-08-2002 02:27									#60
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(Martin) Brian Mulroney.