02-09-2002 18:55									#121
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara This is why children do not have fully formed rights. A fetus simply does not have any right what so ever. It is mindless.

No, children do not have fully formed rights because they are presumed to be incompetent, so some of their rights are remanded to their parents who act as their legal guardians.

	02-09-2002 18:58									#122
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger It would seem you are saying the more powerful you are the more rights you have as you have a greater capacity to claim and defend them.

Now you see the true face of socialism.

	02-09-2002 19:03									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Now you see the true face of socialism.

"Sauve qui peut" reminds me more of the capitalist ethic, not collectivist...

And if genetic distinction makes something a separate organism, then why don't we consider a transplanted kidney or heart to be individuals? They're genetically distinct from their host and consist of human DNA...

	02-09-2002 19:26									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger "Sauve qui peut" reminds me more of the capitalist ethic, not collectivist... And if genetic distinction makes something a separate organism, then why don't we consider a transplanted kidney or heart to be individuals? They're genetically distinct from their host and consist of human DNA...

This is a truely silly question. Go ahead and try to sue someone to get an organ back. Go ahead and try it. I dare you. Actually this has been tried in the past. Someone who donated a kidney to a relative who suffered from kidney failure sued to get it back when they had a falling out. The court reasoned that the recipient was under no obligation to surrender what was given to him in good faith and that the suitors intentions were malicious anyway.

	02-09-2002 20:52									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger "Sauve qui peut" reminds me more of the capitalist ethic, not collectivist... And if genetic distinction makes something a separate organism, then why don't we consider a transplanted kidney or heart to be individuals? They're genetically distinct from their host and consist of human DNA...

Frogger surely you don't need an explanation for this do you?

	02-09-2002 21:37									#126
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spermatoza... that's a funny word

NA... I would educate on the fact that having an unwanted child is what is undesirable. If more people are responsible in their sex lives, then the number of abortions would drop. Then doctors and medical researchers can focus on more effective birth control methods.

This might seem scary to most of you "right to lifers" but humanity is reaching the point of over-population. Controling the population is going to be the aspect of human evolution that separates us from the animals. Humanity (well most of us smart ones anways) will realize that everyone doesn't have an inherent "right" to spawn child after child. Right now, human beings are animals that can't control themselves. Abortion, birth control, and any other form of population control is simply humanity's way of acknowledge that there is a problem. Unfortunately, ancient social controls (religions) have brainwashed people into believing that death and population control is a black and white issue. As people evolve, and humanity as a whole becomes more educated, religion will take a backseat to logic and fact.

It's pointless to argue a point such as "when does life start" or "when do people have souls", because there is no correct answer. You have to go back to the facts and weigh the positives and the negatives.

I'm not going to respond to any other arguments about legislating abortion because that's not what this thread is about. If you'd like to discuss legislation, or whether or not its right or wrong, please create another thread.

END threadjack

	02-09-2002 21:38									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger And if genetic distinction makes something a separate organism, then why don't we consider a transplanted kidney or heart to be individuals? They're genetically distinct from their host and consist of human DNA...

Transplanted kidneys and hearts cannot reproduce.

Germs are considered to be separate organisms even if they require a human host for survival. That's because they have different genetic codes and they're capable of reproduction.

An embryo/fetus isn't yet capable of reproduction, of course, but that's because it is still too soon in its life-cycle. Later in its life cycle it will be capable of reproduction (assuming all of its bits and pieces are intact, of course). A kidney or heart will never be capable of reproduction, because it is not a separate organism.

	02-09-2002 21:46									#128
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ahhh loinburger, you made the mistake of trying to use a logical argument against pro-lifers.

	02-09-2002 22:31									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Sava ahhh loinburger, you made the mistake of trying to use a logical argument against pro-lifers.

How is the argument above against pro-lifers? It seems to me to be utterly unrelated to either position.

	02-09-2002 22:33									#130
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Krazyfrogger's a pro-lifer?

	02-09-2002 22:48									#131
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Yep, Loins statement is more relating to biological fact, not any position.