30-08-2002 02:03									#1
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I'm not sure if everyone will agree with me on this, but the goals of the overwhelming majority of Pro-Choicers and Pro-Lifers are the same. No abortions.

Again, this doesn't apply to everyone, so please, no "I'm pro-whatever and no abortions isn't my goal" flames.

In a perfect world, there would be no abortions. But not because they were illegal, because the quality of life, and morality would be such that people wouldn't have accidental pregnancies.

I do believe that ending the life of an unborn baby is wrong. But in the grand scheme of things, having abortions illegal would create more problems. I want to improve conditions in this country so that less abortions would occur. Let's face it. As with murder, abortions will always occur, regardless of legality. Now, I'm not saying murder should be made legal. I'm saying because of the nature of abortion (it is killing, not murder; and yes there is a difference) it should remain a legal option.

First, I must say that I am uninformed as to the motives of the vast majority of abortions, but I believe that each stereotypical motive can be dealt with. I think that most abortions fall under this category, but i could be wrong.

Teenagers having unprotected sex and getting pregnant.

Solution: More sex education... make condoms more available... start sex education before puberty... the first sex ed class I had was after I lost my virginity, that doesn't seem right now does it? (BTW 16 for first sex ed class, 14 for first sexual experience)

please list other popular scenarios in which women choose to have an abortion so that we can effectively discuss the solution....

please abstain from "Abortion is murder, it is evil, it needs to be banned, etc", because this discussion is more about how to prevent the situations that lead women to have an abortion rather than to make them illegal...

	30-08-2002 02:10									#2
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Other scenarios:

A man and woman having an adulturous relationship.

An adult woman having unprotected sex. (Remeber Sava, there are many people having sex without any form of birth control, when they should know better. it's not just igonorant kids).

Yes Sava, I agree as a pro-lifer, I am less concerned with the legislation factor as I am with the attitudes that surround sex.

	30-08-2002 02:13									#3
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How about this: allow things like the shot and the pill to be paid for by the government. That would, combined with improved education would stop abortion in it's tracks.

	30-08-2002 02:16									#4
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solution?

a cheap and easy to find "morning after" pill. I'm talking convenience stores here.

	30-08-2002 02:16									#5
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quote: Originally posted by November Adam Other scenarios: A man and woman having an adulturous relationship. An adult woman having unprotected sex. (Remeber Sava, there are many people having sex without any form of birth control, when they should know better. it's not just igonorant kids). Yes Sava, I agree as a pro-lifer, I am less concerned with the legislation factor as I am with the attitudes that surround sex.

Yes I realize kids aren't the only ones having sex. I just don't know the statistical percentages of people who have abortions.

That's good, NovAdam... that's the point of my thread is that that attitudes surround the responsibilities and morals behind sex is the more important issue that we should be dealing with instead of legislation.

	30-08-2002 02:17									#6
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The biggest improvement that can be made, IMO, is to promote a culture where personal responsibility is paramount. Too often it seems that people are so intent on protecting their rights ("I can have sex if I want to, when I want to, dammit, it's my right!") that they forget that they have responsibilities that accompany those rights ("Hmm, it might be a good idea to use birth control if I'm going to have sex, since I'm certainly not ready to be a parent"). Then, rather than accept that they behaved irresponsibly ("Aw heck, I'm pregnant/my girlfriend's pregnant, I guess I was pretty stupid for not using birth control"), they'll often fall back on their rights again rather than accept the consequences of their irresponsible behavior ("I can have an abortion if I want to, when I want to, dammit, it's my right!"). Sex/abortion is not the only area of our culture in which this occurs--believe me, most of my friends and acquaintances are irresponsible jackasses, and none of them have ever gotten pregnant or had a girlfriend get pregnant (though it was sometimes the result of luck, not responsibility, that these people haven't become parents or facilitated an abortion). There are plenty of ways in which they can behave irresponsibly, not just sexually.

Changing an entire culture is pretty damn tough, though, especially when the folks in charge usually seem to be some of the greatest perpetrators.

	30-08-2002 02:18									#7
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Last time I checked. Almost all birth control methods are not 100% effective. So it is possible for RESPONSIBLE people to have unwanted pregnancies. Even for those that are so responsible they are using multiple forms of birth control.

	30-08-2002 02:20									#8
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Yes, but if everyone was using birth control then the amount of unwanted pregnancies would be far reduced. There are going to be unwanted pregnancies by responsible people. I think we should discuss this later... like when the vast majority of abortions fall under this scenario/category.

	30-08-2002 02:21									#9
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Rah: I'm pretty sure that's still the case. You can get pretty close to 100% effectiveness, but even a vasectemy or tubal ligation could potentially fail to prevent pregnancy.

	30-08-2002 02:28									#10
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I agree with Loin on this, the biggest problem is the lack of responsibility.

I would even venture to say that is the biggest problem, not education. Kids learn responsibility form their parents, and other adults around. If kids are going to be responsible they have to see it around them.

Granted a good bit of education would to have a kid babysit a baby who has colic, that would fix them! (Its making me think twice about another one! )

	30-08-2002 02:31									#11
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Would legislation change a culture?

	30-08-2002 02:34									#12
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No

Aside from extermination of irresponsible people its not a solution

Need i say again? Morning after pill. cheap without the need to go to a doctor.

	30-08-2002 02:38									#13
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quote: Originally posted by November Adam Would legislation change a culture?

I dunno. We could teach ethics in public schools (contrary to what some may believe, it is fairly easy to teach ethics without teaching religion or encroaching on religion), but IIRC the federal government can't mandate what's taught in the school system.

Kohlberg did a fair number of studies in which he proved fairly conclusively that children who are taught ethics in schools have far more developed ethical principles than children who are not taught ethics in schools. Teaching ethics in public schools might not change the culture overnight, but IMO it would be a good start.

	30-08-2002 02:38									#14
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Diss, good idea.

Legislation can change a culture. Look at prohibition (in the 20's and today).

So far on the list of effective solutions we have.

1. More education...
2. Morning after pill at convenient stores
3. monks commie idea I agree with it, but that would greatly affect more than just the issue of abortion... I'm not sure if it could be a viable option.

	30-08-2002 02:40									#15
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger I dunno. We could teach ethics in public schools (contrary to what some may believe, it is fairly easy to teach ethics without teaching religion or encroaching on religion)

Very good. Another person that realizes ethics and morality are not concurrent with religion...

Ethics in school would be good, but as you said, on the Federal level, not much can be done. This idea would require reform in the education system (which is needed IMO), and might be more difficult to do.

	30-08-2002 02:42									#16
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Monk's idea has merit, but it also requires that irresponsible folks start acting responsibly. If they couldn't be bothered to use birth control the night before, then they might not bother to use birth control the morning after. (Many will, though, since they're not being rushed by their randiness.)

	30-08-2002 02:44									#17
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Sava, loin, agreed.

The reason I said that was because just the other day one of our favorite trolls (who is now serving time on our favorite island) made a blatant statement that ANYONE that had an unwanted pregnancy was simply irresponsible. And deserved what ever happened.

Just wanted to clarify.

	30-08-2002 02:47									#18
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Errrrr......... I've known plenty of people who were utterly unapologetic about abortion.

	30-08-2002 02:48									#19
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At the theological level, the anti-abortion argument isn't about abortion at all. All religions have tried to pen up and restrict sexuality as the competition -- it gives people the same rapture of spiritual transcendence the clergy is always on about (and which is also suspiciously close to symptoms of acute hunger brought on by fasting). All religions also try to control women, since they think of them as sexuality incarnate.

Some religions go more with the flow of sexuality, but Orthodox religions of all stripes are anti-sex. They have identified sex as the enemy, therefore everything about it has to be surrounded by reprisal, penalty, and pain.

Orthodox religious establishments oppose abortion for exactly the same reasons that they opposed treating venereal diseases in the 19th century. These are the penalties for doing something they hate, therefore you're not allowed to evade God's penalties. This isn't morality -- it's power.

If abortion is murder, then so is abstinence.

	30-08-2002 02:52									#20
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quote: Originally posted by rah Just wanted to clarify.

No worries, my trolls are usually about things like cartoons and gettin' jiggy with it. It's no fun to troll about something of even borderline importance, let alone something to do with ethics.

	30-08-2002 02:54									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Kepler At the theological level, the anti-abortion argument isn't about abortion at all. All religions have tried to pen up and restrict sexuality as the competition -- it gives people the same rapture of spiritual transcendence the clergy is always on about (and which is also suspiciously close to symptoms of acute hunger brought on by fasting). All religions also try to control women, since they think of them as sexuality incarnate. Some religions go more with the flow of sexuality, but Orthodox religions of all stripes are anti-sex. They have identified sex as the enemy, therefore everything about it has to be surrounded by reprisal, penalty, and pain. Orthodox religious establishments oppose abortion for exactly the same reasons that they opposed treating venereal diseases in the 19th century. These are the penalties for doing something they hate, therefore you're not allowed to evade God's penalties. This isn't morality -- it's power. If abortion is murder, then so is abstinence.

uhmm, I hope you aren't talking about the Orthodox church... they allow priests to get married... in fact, marriage is a requirement in the Serbian Orthodox church. I believe you are referring to orthodox without the capitalization.

Rah:

Doc: What's your take on this thread and the suggestions in it?

	30-08-2002 03:22									#22
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The only argument I can see for banning an abortion is if it were medically proven that a fetus is a living human being in the same way you or I are.

But there's even a problem here - it's forcing a woman to do something with her body, take a risk, even, in order to ensure life for another. We can't force someone to donate a kidney, and we can't even take organs out of a dead person without their consent, so I'm not sure we could ban abortion, even IF it was proven that the fetus is the same as one of us.

Not that I think abortion is a good idea. I don't, not at all.

	30-08-2002 03:40									#23
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd The only argument I can see for banning an abortion is if it were medically proven that a fetus is a living human being in the same way you or I are. But there's even a problem here - it's forcing a woman to do something with her body, take a risk, even, in order to ensure life for another. We can't force someone to donate a kidney, and we can't even take organs out of a dead person without their consent, so I'm not sure we could ban abortion, even IF it was proven that the fetus is the same as one of us. Not that I think abortion is a good idea. I don't, not at all.

Why does the fetus have to be the same as you or I? If it's human, then terminating its life is wrong.

The problem with your kidney analogy, is that it is the man and the womans actions that created the life. Thus the consequences of their actions is the creation of the life that you are saying the woman should be allowed to terminate.

	30-08-2002 03:43									#24
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quote: Why does the fetus have to be the same as you or I? If it's human, then terminating its life is wrong.

That's what I was trying to say.

quote: The problem with your kidney analogy, is that it is the man and the womans actions that created the life. Thus the consequences of their actions is the creation of the life that you are saying the woman should be allowed to terminate.

True.

My ultimate point, though, is that the federal government should not ban abortion. Murder is not a federal crime (except on federal property of course), and if a fetus is human, then killing it would likely be murder.

Just find a credible scientist to prove that a fetus is human, and if there is a lack equally credible dissenting opinion I will say that you can go ahead and ban abortion at the STATE level.

	30-08-2002 04:17									#25
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I'm not sure of the laws of abortion. But only very early abortions should be allowed. There is no reason to allow late-term abortions.

	30-08-2002 04:23									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Kepler At the theological level, the anti-abortion argument isn't about abortion at all. All religions have tried to pen up and restrict sexuality as the competition -- it gives people the same rapture of spiritual transcendence the clergy is always on about (and which is also suspiciously close to symptoms of acute hunger brought on by fasting). All religions also try to control women, since they think of them as sexuality incarnate. Some religions go more with the flow of sexuality, but Orthodox religions of all stripes are anti-sex. They have identified sex as the enemy, therefore everything about it has to be surrounded by reprisal, penalty, and pain. Orthodox religious establishments oppose abortion for exactly the same reasons that they opposed treating venereal diseases in the 19th century. These are the penalties for doing something they hate, therefore you're not allowed to evade God's penalties. This isn't morality -- it's power. If abortion is murder, then so is abstinence.

troll another thread

(And yes, Oregon is lovely)

Jon Miller

	30-08-2002 04:25									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident I'm not sure of the laws of abortion. But only very early abortions should be allowed. There is no reason to allow late-term abortions.

I agree

(early abortions are questionable (when does life begin?), late abortions are not

Jon Miller

	30-08-2002 04:30									#28
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I think the question is "how to reduce the number of abortions without outlawing abortion," not "should abortion be outlawed."

	30-08-2002 04:41									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller I agree (early abortions are questionable (when does life begin?), late abortions are not : ) Jon Miller

	30-08-2002 04:43									#30
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still wrong, that smilie should be

Jon Miller