14-09-2002 11:38									#421
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No, I was talkng about his regarding the war as border skirmish. Rather larger than that, considering what he ended up committing to it.

	14-09-2002 11:47									#422
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quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus Then why did he discount every piece of intelligence that was sent to him indicating that Hitler was going to attack?

Because he was paronoid who beleived that he is smarter then Hitler. And he beleive that he triked Hitler with non-aggerssion pact and that untill Germany in war with GB, Hitler will not attack SU.

quote: I'm saying that if Stalin just moved in after the Germans to establish a buffer zone, the Finns would most likely have their hands full with Hitler.

Sure.
But, Stalin was SURE that Finns WILL GIVE right of passage to Hitler, and he saw no reason for Hitler to invade Finland if he would have everything he wanted without war- the right of passage for Hitler's army.

	14-09-2002 11:49									#423
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quote: Because he was paronoid who beleived that he is smarter then Hitler. And he beleive that he triked Hitler with non-aggerssion pact and that untill Germany in war with GB, Hitler will not attack SU.

Why would that make him think his intelligence was false?

	14-09-2002 11:52									#424
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quote: But, Stalin was SURE that Finns WILL GIVE right of passage to Hitler, and he saw no reason for Hitler to invade Finland if he would have everything he wanted without war- the right of passage for Hitler's army.

Why was that?

	14-09-2002 11:57									#425
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quote: Why would that make him think his intelligence was false?

Because, he was crazy paranoid. I have not different explanation. So many different sources tells him that war will start at summer of 1941, but he refused to beleive in this, refused to admit that Hitler acted smarter the he, refused to accept defeat of his "diplmatic gift".
One word- paranoid. When the war started he spend few days on hysteria, instead of made of decisions.

	14-09-2002 12:00									#426
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Wouldn't megalomaniac or conceited be a better description?

	14-09-2002 12:09									#427
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quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus Why was that?

A lot of reasons, but Idon't have time now.
This thread starts as anti-USA bashing, why it turned to Winter war discusion again?

	14-09-2002 12:10									#428
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quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus Wouldn't megalomaniac or conceited be a better description?

Perhaps. One word crazy and super-conceited.

	14-09-2002 12:18									#429
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quote: This thread starts as anti-USA bashing, why it turned to Winter war discusion again?

Actually it started as pro-American crap, but that's beside the point. Blame whichever Finn asked you how you saw the war...

quote: Perhaps. One word crazy and super-conceited.

On that we can agree (and about his paranoia too, just that I don't think that's what made him dismiss his intelligence).

	14-09-2002 21:31									#430
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quote: Originally posted by Serb Oh really? It wasn't you who was allied with Hitler in 1941/ It wasn't your army who fought on Hitler's side? It wasn't you who was on of the AXIS countries? Baltic states were annexed by Soviet Union in August 2 1940- almost 6 months after Soviet-Finnish war was over. So, I don't see logic in your argument.

I was talking about 1939. The things what happened in 1941 is direct result of 39 + the fact that not allying axis would be really bad idea (at the time). Some could argue that there was other choices too to consider instead of allying with them but at the time, there was not really options. It was revenge too, mostly lack of good options.

And what comes to baltic states, im sorry about that. My bad, wrong info. Some time has passed since i was in school. What i recall is the land deal (before the war) was unfair, but i cant remember too well and i cant check, because i dont have my old school books with me. Sure i "can" with google but it takes too long for a lazy guy. Did the deal involve something to do with a soviet military base or was it some else deal?.....

	17-09-2002 08:25									#431
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No bases, like in case of Baltic states. Just land exchange. He offered bigger lands in Korelia (iirc) on exchange for Finnish lands near Leningrad.

	17-09-2002 08:33									#432
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By the way, serb, I haven't abandoned our discussion, I'm just pretty short on time. I'll get around to replying one of these days, but it's obvious by now that we're getting nowhere with each other.

	17-09-2002 08:53									#433
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Of course, as always.

	17-09-2002 21:54									#434
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Well, actually it was more of a German client state in many ways, until Germany foolishly started threatening it.

What do You mean by that?

Oh, and Serb, it was USSR to claim that the way to the World Revolution goes through the dead body of Poland...

	17-09-2002 21:58									#435
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Let it go!

	17-09-2002 22:01									#436
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Find me some other topic to quarrel about!

Unfortunatelly Polish roads are in a very bad condition...

	17-09-2002 23:04									#437
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*sigh* the anti-american crowd is right. we were a useless appendage in both world wars. nothing we did made the least bit of difference. the british had hitler right where they wanted him at dunkirk, and later, when london was getting bombed flat.

we shoulda stayed home for all the good we did anyone.

and the russians! we could *never* have touched that fine russian armor. their productive capacity was demonstrably so far beyond ours that lend lease was a waste of time and effort.

our sad excuse for an army, navy, and airforce couldn't have kept a half-sunk russian floating bathtub bottled up in a fjord, much less an open harbor of any kind.

face it, my fellow americans....we suck entirely, and have been the father of every evil the world has seen since 1776, and perhaps slightly before that.

'k?

-=Vel=-
(practicing my anti-american sentiments)

	17-09-2002 23:55									#438
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx *sigh* the anti-american crowd is right. we were a useless appendage in both world wars. nothing we did made the least bit of difference. the british had hitler right where they wanted him at dunkirk, and later, when london was getting bombed flat. we shoulda stayed home for all the good we did anyone. and the russians! we could *never* have touched that fine russian armor. their productive capacity was demonstrably so far beyond ours that lend lease was a waste of time and effort. our sad excuse for an army, navy, and airforce couldn't have kept a half-sunk russian floating bathtub bottled up in a fjord, much less an open harbor of any kind. face it, my fellow americans....we suck entirely, and have been the father of every evil the world has seen since 1776, and perhaps slightly before that. 'k? -=Vel=- (practicing my anti-american sentiments)

I'm generous today: 1/10.

That was still a pretty bad.

	18-09-2002 00:39									#439
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Awww...c'mon Tass...I was bein' serious! Whassamatter? Have you never seen an American not chest-beating, and therefore are so stunned by it that you assume it a troll?

Sure the USA sucks! All that tripe about the US of A producing 50% of the world's output just after wwii....pure propoganda. At it's highest, it was no more than 12% of global output. Same with the sum-total size of the economy. We all have econo-envy over here, and we just make up the numbers to make ourselves feel better. It's well known in the states that Rwanda has had a consistently higher GDP since 1984.

Standard of living....pah! The postcard industry is doing a booming business over here, selling pretty pictures of houses with white picket fences....the reality is that 80% or more of the population lives out of mini-storage facilities with one bathroom per row of a hundred.

Military? The Nerf corporation makes all our weapons, so you can imagine the global threat we truly are....

-=Vel=-

	18-09-2002 06:27									#440
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It was very funny. But you should add this smile after your posts " ". Some one could think that you are serious.

	18-09-2002 06:29									#441
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Awww...c'mon Tass...I was bein' serious! Whassamatter? Have you never seen an American not chest-beating, and therefore are so stunned by it that you assume it a troll? Sure the USA sucks! All that tripe about the US of A producing 50% of the world's output just after wwii....pure propoganda. At it's highest, it was no more than 12% of global output. Same with the sum-total size of the economy. We all have econo-envy over here, and we just make up the numbers to make ourselves feel better. It's well known in the states that Rwanda has had a consistently higher GDP since 1984. Standard of living....pah! The postcard industry is doing a booming business over here, selling pretty pictures of houses with white picket fences....the reality is that 80% or more of the population lives out of mini-storage facilities with one bathroom per row of a hundred. Military? The Nerf corporation makes all our weapons, so you can imagine the global threat we truly are.... -=Vel=-

Ok, now that was just bad.

.001/10. Better luck next time.

	18-09-2002 06:38									#443
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yes,

	18-09-2002 06:45									#444
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What? You also think it wasn't funny?

	18-09-2002 06:53									#445
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I don't know what Tassadar is about.

	18-09-2002 08:29									#446
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Americans work more than Europeans. In Spain, their "siesta" time is a 3 hour nap. We get enough time to eat a sandwich for lunch, and then keep working. That's why we are more productive. We aren't lazy and we don't have nearly as much welfare as Euros.

I will give France a little credit for helping us back in the Revolutionary War, but we saved them from the evil Germans so they should be nicer to us.

	18-09-2002 08:38									#447
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quote: I will give France a little credit for helping us back in the Revolutionary War, but we saved them from the evil Germans so they should be nicer to us.

American Guy: "If it wasn't for us you'd be speaking GERMAN!"

French Guy: "Well if it wasn't for us you'd be speaking..."

American Guy: "Speaking what? ENGLISH? And you'd STILL be speaking German!"

	18-09-2002 16:52									#449
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quote: Originally posted by Serb No bases, like in case of Baltic states. Just land exchange. He offered bigger lands in Korelia (iirc) on exchange for Finnish lands near Leningrad.

Damn, i didnt think youd say anything about that, but you did and now you made me waste my time with google . Just to be sure im not completely losing my memory.
Qoute from one of the sites:
"At the beginning of October 1939, the Soviet Union faced Finland with certain territorial demands. The ensuing negotiations in Moscow, lasting about two months, were inconclusive. The reason for the lack of results was that loss of the areas concerned, the Karelian isthmus and the naval base on the Hanko peninsula, would have critically undermined Finland's defence. At the time, the Soviet Union already had control of Estonia."

There it is, Hanko naval base. Found many sources with google, if you doubt me you are free to search too.

	18-09-2002 17:02									#450
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quote: Originally posted by King of Rasslin Americans work more than Europeans. In Spain, their "siesta" time is a 3 hour nap. We get enough time to eat a sandwich for lunch, and then keep working. That's why we are more productive. We aren't lazy and we don't have nearly as much welfare as Euros.

well unfortunately we're not all spaniards huh... it depends on your job anyway, i only get half an hour (got a little faggoty job for 3 weeks) and i have to work about 9 hours a day, from 7 to 5, i do get another 15 minute break though... got i hate it!