30-08-2002 16:42									#31
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China couldn'ttake Taiwan? Of course it could. This is the same as to say USA couldn't take Haiti. However, such occupation could trigger a war with USA.

Also, if China would fight against North Korea, this possibly would become a war with the greatest looses ever (except both world wars maybe). Chinese army si the biggest in the world and has over 3 millions soldiers manpower. North Korean army is second or third and has one and half million soldiers manpower. And the fact that both states lacks of new technologies (except nukes for China, but I doubt China would nuke North Korea) would only make more looses.

	30-08-2002 16:46									#32
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Taiwan would put up a much better fight than North korea. It has well motivated troops , there technology is equal or better.

North Korea would get rolled over in 2 weeks with most of their troops surrendering

	30-08-2002 17:14									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Gatekeeper DaShi, et al.: First of all, somebody had better inform Rome about this. I'm quite sure they would be *very* interested in the fact that former territories — even independent for hundreds or thousands of years — can still be claimed.

And more extreme political parties in Rome still hope so believe it or not.

Mussolini was the last that managed to do something about it for a short period. But such suckers still exist.

	30-08-2002 18:03									#34
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quote: China couldn'ttake Taiwan? Of course it could. This is the same as to say USA couldn't take Haiti. However, such occupation could trigger a war with USA.

It's a well known fact that China doesn't have the naval power to take Taiwan, nor do they have sufficient air power to establish clear air superiority.

	30-08-2002 18:26									#35
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As for air superiority, it is only a matter of time (J-10 fighters already being produced in China). As for naval power, I believe China would have enough ships to transport at least a small part of their army to Taiwan.
Taiwan is too weak to fight against China.

	30-08-2002 18:31									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Sonic Taiwan is too weak to fight against China.

The entire Taiwan military is designed to fight off
china. nothing else.

	30-08-2002 18:32									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Sonic As for air superiority, it is only a matter of time (J-10 fighters already being produced in China). As for naval power, I believe China would have enough ships to transport at least a small part of their army to Taiwan. Taiwan is too weak to fight against China.

Compared to China they have a small army, but they would be defending a small Island. Sea born invasions are hideously difficult.

IIRC on D-day the allies put aprox 100,000 troops ashore on the first day, they had overwhelming air and naval superiority, and the element of surprise. They still only just held all the beach heads.

Taiwan would know they were comming and would be able to at least deny superiority to the Chinese air force and navy.

Taiwan would at least hold out until the US came and sank all the Chinese ships

	30-08-2002 18:35									#38
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quote: As for air superiority, it is only a matter of time (J-10 fighters already being produced in China).

Taiwan boasts one of the most concentrated anti-air defense systems in the world. Their air defense fighters are also significantly more advanced than the majority of Chinese fighters, their pilots are better, and their missiles and maintenance are better.

quote: As for naval power, I believe China would have enough ships to transport at least a small part of their army to Taiwan.

Of course China could transport a small portion of its army to Taiwan. But Taiwan only has 3 suitable landing sites, and all are very heavily defended. Any Chinese landing would be immediately crushed before reinforcements could be sent in.

To give you an example, the entire US Navy, the largest and most powerful navy in the world, can land only a little over 1 division of combat troops and equipment at a time, using every single amphibious and military transport ship in the inventory. China can land a LOT less, but even if they COULD land 1 division, which they can't, that still wouldn't be enough to take down Taiwan.

	30-08-2002 18:43									#39
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HOw about Taiwan giving up it's claim for independence?

	30-08-2002 18:50									#40
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DF: for argument's sake , an invasion doesn't have to be amphibious. I am pretty sure that the PRC won't be able to land from the air in anyform a suitable attack , due to the lack of transport aircraft on a major scale, but a massive attack by air-superiority jets , coupled with strike aircraft armed with Radiation seeking missiles , could take them out. a late 1970 Soviet or US military would be able to do it . Of course, China isn't even near.

	30-08-2002 18:54									#41
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quote: Taiwan would put up a much better fight than North korea. It has well motivated troops , there technology is equal or better. North Korea would get rolled over in 2 weeks with most of their troops surrendering

stinger, that's not quite true.

mainly because you know how the japanese may have refused to surrender on its home islands? where do you think they got it from? most of asia has that queer philosophy that one must never fail. meaning that nkorea wouldn't fall after two weeks, we'd likely see a lot of blood for three to four months before nkorea's current economic collapse finally affects the military.

	30-08-2002 18:55									#42
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quote: While a parody, I think it does have a valid point: if China claims Taiwan on the basis of it being 'a former Chinese territory', what keeps it from pressing a similar claim on Vietnam/Korea/etc? Note that I'm not discussing their abilty to back the claims, just justify them.

TMM, korea could claim most of manchuria as former Korean territory.

	30-08-2002 18:57									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed stinger, that's not quite true. mainly because you know how the japanese may have refused to surrender on its home islands? where do you think they got it from? most of asia has that queer philosophy that one must never fail. meaning that nkorea wouldn't fall after two weeks, we'd likely see a lot of blood for three to four months before nkorea's current economic collapse finally affects the military.

I see your point, but everybody thought the Iraqi's would fight to the death in the gulf war, they didn't because they didn't see the point of dying for sadham.

I suppose though North Koreans might be conditioned enough to be fanatics, if there not though wouldn't they just pack it in.

	30-08-2002 19:12									#44
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quote: I suppose though North Koreans might be conditioned enough to be fanatics, if there not though wouldn't they just pack it in.

that's the problem. they are conditioned. otherwise, they wouldn't even be along the DMZ sniping every so often at the skoreans.

	30-08-2002 19:21									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed TMM, korea could claim most of manchuria as former Korean territory.

And Japan. And Russia.

Didn't the Chinese own what's now Mongolia at some point?

	30-08-2002 19:22									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Vlad Antlerkov Didn't the Chinese own what's now Mongolia at some point?

Wasn't it the other way around?

	30-08-2002 19:35									#47
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Lithuania would then claim Ukraine, Moldavia, Belarus, half of Poland, big part of European Russia, Latvia, Estonia, Kaliningrad oblast

However, I believe Mongolia would be the nation which could claim the most because of history .

	30-08-2002 19:38									#48
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We'll have our "American colonies" back please

	30-08-2002 19:38									#49
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what about the vatican (as Rome) claiming most of europe and the mediterranean?

	30-08-2002 19:41									#50
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Dino:

Meh, scratch that. Looked at the text I got that idea from (China owning Mongolia during the late Qing dynasty) and it shows Mongolia as separate.

And Cthulhu knows what Saudi Arabia (on behalf of Mecca and Medina) would pull under this pretext...

	30-08-2002 21:25									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Merciless The source: http://www.onion.com That was good laugh.

link to the article

	30-08-2002 22:22									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Vlad Antlerkov Meh, scratch that. Looked at the text I got that idea from (China owning Mongolia during the late Qing dynasty) and it shows Mongolia as separate.

That's true. Mongolia, Manchuria, and large parts of Seberia was part of Chinese territory during the Qing dynasty. At least the early part of Qing.

	30-08-2002 22:28									#53
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Beginners. Bloody beginners, the Chinese (or the Onion, if you prefer). Take an example with the French. The policics of "reunion" which was meant to conquer the German regions between Maas and Rhine (of which they had conquered three cities beforehand, or so). They justified this by the reunification of regions that earlier formed one country.
Hey, you've got to apply this principle twice and are justified to conquer nearly all of the world!

	30-08-2002 23:10									#54
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That's going to be easy, just reunit all the Chinatowns around the world

	31-08-2002 01:01									#55
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quote: I am pretty sure that the PRC won't be able to land from the air in anyform a suitable attack , due to the lack of transport aircraft on a major scale, but a massive attack by air-superiority jets , coupled with strike aircraft armed with Radiation seeking missiles , could take them out. a late 1970 Soviet or US military would be able to do it . Of course, China isn't even near.

Isn't that just precisely the point?

	31-08-2002 01:26									#56
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Well, true enough , but big spending can increase performance in a very short time.

	31-08-2002 02:29									#57
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd True, but compared to the Chinese navy, or any other navy in Asia, I don't see how they could lose.

Getting blown full of holes by standoff ASM's one tin can at a time.


The PRC can easily take Taiwan (easily in terms of it's up to the PRC to define acceptable casualties incurred and damage inflicted).

The question is only how much cost is acceptable in their political and economic calculations?

Taiwan could have the best air force in the world - it don't mean **** if the fuel's burning and the airfields are cratered.

The best aird defense system in the world can be saturated, one sector at a time, by ballistic missiles.

The PRC has the total mass to crush every form of Taiwanese air and coastal defense, such that they could get ashore with rowboats. Again, the only question is how much political risk, and how much damage to Taiwan are you willing to do - or are the Taiwanese willing to sustain before the inevitable surrender.

An island is the ultimate form of fixed fortification, and as such, it is utterly indefensible in absolute terms. The only question is relative cost and worth.

	31-08-2002 02:35									#58
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MtG, et al.:

Hmm ... OK, so if Taiwan has no independent future and can only look forward to being part of China again — by peaceable means nor not — who's next on China's list of places to, uh, bring back under the protective wing of the motherland?

Gatekeeper

	31-08-2002 02:38									#59
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat An island is the ultimate form of fixed fortification, and as such, it is utterly indefensible in absolute terms. The only question is relative cost and worth.

The fact that they want the island's infrastructure relatively intact if/when reunification happens is the main obstacle to invasion.

	31-08-2002 02:51									#60
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DD - exactly. They can do it, and if Taiwan forces their hand, they will do it, but until then, it's just the world's biggest game of chicken.

Gatekeeper - I've never thought of the Chinese as being expansionist per se, it's just more dirt and people to manage. Expanding influence and power is another story altogether, though.