30-08-2002 12:48									#1
	Oddities of Civ 3 Enter the AD-FREE zone

Hi guys!

I'm playing a civ 3 game as the Americans.

I noticed a few odd things, about advisors, enemy, huts, etc.


1. My Trade advisor is never happy. She keeps saying "We need to acquire more resources / luxuries" when I have more than 2 or 3 of every available resource and luxury. I have spices, furs, and grapes. Also, I haven't hit Industrial age yet so I have iron, horses, and saltpeter.


2. I have never seen my trade, science, military, or culture advisors in a "surprised" state. I checked some civ 3 art files, and it had pictures of "surprised" advisors. In what circumstances do the "surprised face" advisors appear?


3. Is there any way I could buff up the AI? I took a look at the editor, and saw "Default AI level". Its Reageant, but if I change it to Deity, will the AI behave in, say, a cheiftain game the way it would in a Deity game?


4. Is there any way I can modify rules on existing saved games using the editor? There's a few things I'd like to change, such as AI to make it more smarter, edit corruption, and a few superficial changes.


5. I have NEVER EVER gotten a cultural flipping. I've played like 50 games of Civ 3 so far, played them to 1500 AD or later, with plenty of chances in or near enemy territory to have culture flippings happen. Maybe my Civ 3 program doesn't have culture flipping option enabled?



I apologize if I sound like a newbie or anything. Its just that these things have been bugging me. Any help or feedback would be greatly appreciated!

	30-08-2002 12:57									#2
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Never mind your trade advisor, she's supposed to be greedy and thus never happy

	30-08-2002 13:54									#3
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3. You have it backwards. The setting determines the base AI handicap. Set it to the lowest setting to really get your butt kicked. I've never heard of anyone returning to tell the tale though.

5. You are the anti-Coracle.

	30-08-2002 14:55									#4
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Notyoueither,

does this mean... if I had the AI set to Deity like this, then play a Cheiftain level game (easiest), will the AI be super easy?

If this is the case, then should I set the AI Difficulty to Cheiftain, then have a worthy enemy in a Cheiftain, Warlord, or Reagant game?

If this is true, I'll have to restart my empire, and I'm not too happy about doing that. I spent 3 days making a sizeable American empire. Is there ANY way to update the saved games or "scenario from editor" games, once I already am underway with the game?

If there isn't, I guess I'll just have to be real cheap-butt and give America 50 settlers, rails to all my "previous" city locations, etc. to recreate my empire ASAP with the new rules.


Here's the AI Difficulty that I'm talking about.

Attachment: image1.gif
This has been downloaded 275 time(s).

	30-08-2002 15:40									#5
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Uhh, let me rephrase my question for a better clarification.


I put the AI Difficulty to Deity in the screenshot above.

If I start up a game on this map / scenario, on Cheiftain level, will the AI be super hard, or super easy?


Gameplay difficulty________AI difficulty____AI status
----------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Cheiftain______________Deity________super hard
2. Cheiftain______________Chieftain_____super wimpy

3. Deity_________________Deity________insane hard
4. Deity_________________Cheiftain_____super wimpy


I need to know which ones are right, because I'm taking my first dabs into Editor. I want to play at least Cheiftain to Reageant, while having smart AI. That way I can have the benefits of the easy levels, such as fewer mad people, less corruption, faster tech, etc. while I can have challenging enemys.


I apologize if my questions are reduanant, but I'm really trying to figure out how to maxmize gameplay with good AI.


Again, I appreciate any feedback and ideas. Keep them coming!!!

	30-08-2002 17:16									#6
	Re: Oddities of Civ 3 Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Sovereign 5. I have NEVER EVER gotten a cultural flipping. I've played like 50 games of Civ 3 so far, played them to 1500 AD or later, with plenty of chances in or near enemy territory to have culture flippings happen. Maybe my Civ 3 program doesn't have culture flipping option enabled?

Chance of culture flipping is related to (number of foreigners + number of tile overlaps - garrison/2). It is also related to the distance of the relevant capitals.

To completely stop the chance of a culture flip in one of your own cities, you need a garrison which is double the (number of foreigners + number of tiles overlaps). Double again if the city is in resistance. To alleviate the problem, build cultural improvements to expand your culture borders, and to convert the foreigners to your own culture over time.

To try and flip a rival city, you need to place a city so that its borders overlap those of the rival. Don't forget to garrison the city so it doesn't flip away from you. Build cultural improvements to expand your borders into the rival territory. There is an element of chance involved no matter what you do, but like all games of chance, the more you play, the more chances you have of success.

Here is an example, Strasbourg:
** SPOILER ** GOTM10 **
http://www.zachriel.com/gotm10/bc0230-Strasbourg.htm

	30-08-2002 17:26									#7
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Interesting. I guess I'll try sticking my cities between rival cities and see what happens.

Although I always go for the maximum 20 tile cities, not 7 tile or 13 tile cities.

I read your strategies and step by step games, and oh boy! I feel like a 10th class newbie

The 30 - 40 elephants or tanks or 7 armies in 1 screen looks ultra-nasty! I've been playing on Cheiftain or Warlord, because whenever I try higher than Monarch, I keep quitting. These rioters really ruin my day.


Thats why I'm going nuts about the Editor problem I have. I'm trying to keep most of the Civ 3 original rules in effect, but enhance the AI to Deity skill and level, while keeping the game itself at Cheiftain so I won't get screwed royally by rioters, insane corruption, extremely slow science, and whatnot.


Could you or anyone shed some light on this? Or shall I use the Editor to make Deity level itself same as Cheiftain, just to get Cheiftain riot and corruption levels, while making the AI challenging?


Again, thanks for your advice, Zachariel!

	30-08-2002 17:40									#8
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

lol at that zachriel, very amusing
In fact its a lot of fun reading through your games

sovreign?
whats wrong with moving up the difficulty ladder as normal until you get to a level where u cant win?

Last edited by Flight on 30-08-2002 at 17:53

	30-08-2002 17:41									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Sovereign Interesting. I guess I'll try sticking my cities between rival cities and see what happens. Although I always go for the maximum 20 tile cities, not 7 tile or 13 tile cities.

Of you want to gain cities with culture flip you must forget the 20 tiles cities. If you put your city too far from the target city, your cultural expansion and consequently the overlapping of the target city may come too late.

The only thing Zachriel had forgotten is the total culture of your empire, which should be much higher than your opponents'. The key elements are: total culture, overlapping tiles, foreigners an distance from capitol.

	30-08-2002 17:49									#10
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I guess I'll have to try that new approach, guys.

I go for the 20 tile cities in the center of my empire, to get the most out of the land.



Flight, the reason why I can't make it on the high difficulty levels is because of riots. They really ruin my gameplay and strategies. A city using 1 or 2 laborers and 1 or 2 enterainers to control riots isn't a productive city at all.


I like the cheiftain level because I can get to size 5 without serious riots. I can get production out of it, fast and efficient enough for temples, cathedrals, whatever, to be able to control riots at sizes 7+. But at size 1 - 4, cities take forever to build "happy people" improvements.


Keep the feedback coming guys!

	30-08-2002 17:53									#11
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i see, well i just let the automatic govenor sort out city happiness and it generally chooses the correct set-up. Are you pop-rushing a lot or is it something else? It just seems like an odd issue to have with the game

	30-08-2002 18:01									#12
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The surprised advisors.. you see them when nations declare war on each other. "Zululand has declared war on the Americans!" Surprised foreign advisor right there.

	30-08-2002 18:27									#13
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When an enemy city flips over to your side, do the enemy get mad at you?

	30-08-2002 18:44									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius The only thing Zachriel had forgotten is the total culture of your empire, which should be much higher than your opponents'. The key elements are: total culture, overlapping tiles, foreigners an distance from capitol.

Oops. Total culture. Right. What he said.
(Thanks Tiberius for the clarification.)

	30-08-2002 19:11									#15
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Sovereign, see this thread in Strategy:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=60386

You need more luxuries.

	30-08-2002 19:27									#16
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by bongo When an enemy city flips over to your side, do the enemy get mad at you?

If you mean will they contact you and say something, no. I have not checked their status at the time, but I have not noticed any problems with flipping.

	30-08-2002 19:27									#17
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Ahh thanks for all your feedback, guys!


I have only one more question.


Is it possible for me to update my current saved games with new Editor rules?

Suppose I have a game at 500 AD with Americans, with my current Editor rules, then I want to change the rules again if I want to enhance the AI, or increase food to make mega-polises like the one in this screenshot.


Is updating or editing the current game rules possible at all?

Attachment: sprawl2.jpg
This has been downloaded 211 time(s).

	30-08-2002 19:36									#18
	Increase the size of your Attachments

No can do. What graphics mod is that?

	30-08-2002 19:43									#19
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Looks like SnOOPy's terrain with GenghisFarb's Urban Sprawl.

	30-08-2002 19:50									#20
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All right Thesus...


For a good challenge, what should I set the AI difficulty level at?


Suppose I want to play at Cheiftain level, then what should I set the AI Difficulty level at in the Editor to get the most ruthless AI?


Cheftain Game level.
AI Difficulty = Deity
AI = super tough


OR


Cheftain game level
AI difficulty = cheiftain
AI = super tough?


Refer to my earlier posts about this.

NotYouEither got me confused on this. I could use some clarification on this so I can re-make my games to be ideal, rather than restarting 5, 10, 20 times over.


Thanks again!

	30-08-2002 19:52									#21
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2. Surprised miltary advisor when you try to disband.
Surprised trade advisor when rival break the deal.

	30-08-2002 20:10									#22
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First, it's my guess that you're not getting luxuries early enough. I find that when I have an empire of 8-12 cities, all <7 pop, I still want to have 3 lux hooked up.

In terms of difficulty, I would first say just try to play Regent and Monarch until you are firmly in control of gameplay mechanics and strategies. Once you've gotten that far, I find that typically Emporer is the most balanced challenge for an experienced player.

That being said, I very much agree with your efforts to improve the AI's performance. There's been LOTS of discussion re this topic, including having gotten some input from Soren.

There are 4 primary drivers:

1) AI difficulty: The AI gets the most benefits if set to Chieftain. The details are somewhere around here...

2) Starting environment: Create an unbalanced environment, and some of the AIs will benefit greatly (and others suffer). This creates a feedback loop, so the strong get stronger.

3) Build preferences: We've been experimenting with this in the AU Mod. Still trying to figure it out.

4) Gov't preferences: Still an open question what this actually does to AI performance.

5) Distance between civs: Soren indicated that AI civs perform better given a little time to develop their cities (but not so distant that they are isolated from tech trading).

Again, try moving up the difficulty levels... a ruthless AI played at Chieftain is probably still gonna be toothless.

	30-08-2002 20:10									#23
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The AI difficulty level is what level the AI plays on so:

AI difficulty = cheiftain
Easy for the AI not you

AI Difficulty = Deity
Hard for the AI not you

	30-08-2002 20:45									#24
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Thanks so much guys!

Now I can go try fixing up the AI to make it better!


I think the AI is way better than Civ 1 and 2, hell even SMAC. I want to refine the AI to make it a worthwhile enemy, that actually makes it to Modern Ages, attack me with battleships and tanks, and maybe even nukes!


I have yet to see that from the AI, so hopefully making things easier for the AI may encourage him / her to grow fast like I do, and then have some "real" competition for a change!


I already have a couple of ideas how to make the AI stronger. Reduce the food consumption of citizens to 1, from 2. That way the AI can get cities quickly, and alleviate its constant size 1 - 3 city status from workers and whatnot.

Second, I modified the science rate to a maximum of 1 turn per discovery like in Civ 2 and SMAC. The AI can have good tech'ing and with plenty of settler diahhrea, city diahrrea, then just maybe he can at least have some semblance of tech research, rather than "discoveries every 30 turns".


Where can I find these AI threads so I can get some additional insight and ideas how to make a worthy adversary?


Again, you guys are a huge help! Thanks a million!

	30-08-2002 21:06									#25
	Inflate your Upload Space

Look in the Strategy forum.

Again, I wouldn't focus too much on making a great AI on the lower levels.

I suggest this thread:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=58720

And this one (check "The keys to AI greatness):

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...ads+new+players

	30-08-2002 21:19									#26
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Thanks again Thesus! I appreciate all your help, and I'll let you know how I fare.

	30-08-2002 22:33									#27
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A further word on the "AI Difficulty Level" dropdown in the editor. This feature sets the "difficulty" level factors that apply to humans when they select their own difficulty level - it will not create a "smarter" or "dumber" AI.

What are the various "difficulty level factors"? Barbarian combat advantages, number of happy citizens born content, good luck / bad luck ratio when popping goody huts, probably a few more I can't remember off the top of my head -- the biggest factor seems to be the number of citizens born content. Set the level to "Deity" and the AI is challenged - many cities won't grow past size 3 (1 happy, 1 unhappy and 1 entertainer) because the AI is not always diligent about getting luxuries and all cities hooked into a trade network. Set the level on Chieftan, and watch out - the AI will grow quickly!

Catt

	31-08-2002 01:00									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Sovereign I read your strategies and step by step games, and oh boy! I feel like a 10th class newbie

Could you put a link to that thread, I like to read those as well, but they are buried all over the board. Thanks.

PS wow that is some grahpic mod, I may have to play one.

	31-08-2002 01:26									#29
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Could you put a link to that thread, I like to read those as well, but they are buried all over the board. Thanks.

http://www.zachriel.com/gotm.htm

	31-08-2002 01:56									#30
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Awesomely done!!

You thinking of putting together a GL band?? I hear Jean-Paul Messier is available...