02-10-2002 09:47									#181
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sometimes reading two ethnicity quarrel and reiterate ages of hate passed down from their fathers gets me real cynical and wonder if it would have been better off that axis won and everyone was of aryan race or japanese. But then again, knowing humanity, japanese and germans would have fought each other, then after, light blue eyes would spread propaganda agst dark blue eyes and round faced asians will hunt down egg faced asians... sigh.

	02-10-2002 10:52									#182
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quote: Originally posted by Palaiologos And Pioneer don't confuse Muslems in general with the Turks.The Turks never promoted science and culture. Those were the Arabs. And Muslems did not abstain from cruelties during the Crusades.

I am not saying they are the same but my guess is that Firaxis actually put the turks as a civ to represent t he muslims!

As for muslims being cruel during the crusades sure they were but from the history I read it was the Christians and their Church that actually started with the cruelties.

So long...

	02-10-2002 11:12									#183
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quote: Originally posted by E As for the Armenian genocide, its amazing how whenever a group rebels and is defeated they run to the world and cry genocide. It obviously was not genocide because a majority of Armenians already lived in the Soviet republic of Armenia, and plenty of Armenians live their today. But thank you for voicing your concerns about Turkish treatement of the Kurds, Greece has done well in supporting their cause mainly since they let the communist PKK set up terrorist camps all over the Greek Islands, so many camps it makes Afghanistan look like disneyland. But for how much the Greeks hate the Turks, Turks aren't so negative towards Greeks, because Turks are not as blood thirsty as your parents or teachers say they are, which is funny since they probably never met a Turk or been to Turkey. Oh I have so much more to add, but I 'll let you moll this over. But the great irony is that every Greek I met in Turkey, loved it! and this includes a Greek two-star general. So before you get ready to foam at the mouth, first pack your bags and take a trip to Turkey and you'll find that Turks and Greeks have more in common than you think and should be better neighbors.

Ok, I like your line of argument here but downplaying the killing of more than a million people "in our times" is monstrous.

As for terrorist camps in Greece, I am pretty sure you are joking, such things are not possible in Greece now days. Greece is not fond of terrorism and will never be.

As for being blood thirsty you are somewhat right. Going to Greek school myself I've read enough of that nonsense to believe that Turks are monsters. Some of the things that were in the books were facts but a lot was not, on the other side the turks have not helped much since whenever things heat up they start threatening with war?! As for meeting other Turks, I have met plenty. We actually go together to both turkish and greek restaurants for lunch all the time. It never ceases to amaze me how much we have in common?!

As for your arguments about ancient Greece you are of course partly right. The Iliad is not a history book it's a poem and not to take literally, although we base a lot of our history on that, because of lack of other written material of the era. On the other side in the times you mention things were quite different annd the comparison is a little unfair. You always have to keep in mind the context of the events' time

On the other side I've also met Turks who have been in Thessaloniki and are still drooling over it, so I come to the point again that we have a lot in common and that we should actually work on these instead of inflaming the Status Quo.

On the other side you have to understand that we were under the Ottoman rule for more than 400 years and that has left a bitterness, much like the slavery for blacks in America and a lot of other similar situations throughout the globe.

So CalcII, what do you do with people's post when the poster is Greek but his flag is the EU and his location is Germany?


So long...

	02-10-2002 22:04									#184
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quote: Originally posted by The Pioneer I am not saying they are the same but my guess is that Firaxis actually put the turks as a civ to represent t he muslims! As for muslims being cruel during the crusades sure they were but from the history I read it was the Christians and their Church that actually started with the cruelties. So long...

In any war cruelty exists! You can't kill people and force rule over enemy without bopping some heads. Oh and Pioneer I was taught the same thing, Christians were generally more cruel during the crusade, and they marched miles away from home to start some ruckas. And I believe muslims were tolerant of other religions unlike the christians, and they allowed religious freedom as long as you payed extra tax in their province.

	02-10-2002 22:15									#185
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by The Pioneer So CalcII, what do you do with people's post when the poster is Greek but his flag is the EU and his location is Germany? So long...

I read. Then I decide if he is giving a valid arguement by basing facts and try to determine if he is being overly biased. Obviously being korean and representing a south korean flag and yet still living in the United States for approximately 7 years serves me a as reminder that some people may not exactly live where their flag is represented.. nor even be of ethnic race of the flag in some cases.

ur posts are aite, I like how you accept Greek teachings as a fact and yet leave room for exaggeration and hate biasing the info.

I don even know why i have korean flag... I'm no patriot for either country and it would make more sense to portray a flag of my citizenship... but then again im prolly overthinking it. and beside "S" was lot faster down the list then "U". lol

EDIT: I just caught myself doing a very interesting psychological thing. notice the flag was referred to as "south korea" while I identified myself as korean. Most koreans don't consider north korean to be of any different, despite massive propaganda intended to hurt them during korean wars. and not calling ourselves "South koreans" could be proof of that. But I'm just wondering now if we South Koreans are acting superior in referring ourselves as 'korean'(normal) and north koreans as 'north koreans', but then again, im prolly overthinking it again... anyway if any german people here can tell me their view about East and West Germany... that would be intersting.

Looks like N vs S korean relationship has been improving recently, which reminds me.. notice how bush administration doesnt concern themselves with n.korea anymore after announcing axis of evil? its prolly a political thing because of recent relationship improvement with s.korea. Though I doubt reunification is not within my time.

2nd EDIT: Im steering away from the topic. Sorry everyone my mind wanders off and I digress alot :b

	03-10-2002 22:03									#186
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THanks for your reply, it looks like this may finally be turning to a more civilized debate on the past instead of an emotional outburst on all sides. Now only if Turk and Greek leaders could do the same.

Anyways, so replies.

quote: Originally posted by The Pioneer Ok, I like your line of argument here but downplaying the killing of more than a million people "in our times" is monstrous.

Of course the killing of more than a million people "in our times" is monstrous, but what is our times. Why does Greece continue to hold modern Turkey accountable for the Ottoman empire? And who has the right to argue what time has been valid. Greece gained Independence around 1820s? this isn't our times. But Greece did invade Turkey in 1922 and that is still long ago. And Greeks conducted terrible atrocities in Cyprus, starting the the Cyprus crisis in 1974.

quote: As for terrorist camps in Greece, I am pretty sure you are joking, such things are not possible in Greece now days. Greece is not fond of terrorism and will never be.

As we've seen in this forum, Greece hates TUrkey very much and its willing to support "freedom fighters," the PKK which has killed 30,000 people since the 1970s. TUrkey sees them rightly as terrorists, Greece AND Germany along with other european countries see them as asylum seekers etc. Yes, its semantics, but it doesnt hide that Greece supports them and their attacks. Remember the Black September leader was found in Athens, and Athens has been on th US state department list as airports known to traffic terrorism.

quote: As for being blood thirsty you are somewhat right. Going to Greek school myself I've read enough of that nonsense to believe that Turks are monsters. Some of the things that were in the books were facts but a lot was not, on the other side the turks have not helped much since whenever things heat up they start threatening with war?! As for meeting other Turks, I have met plenty. We actually go together to both turkish and greek restaurants for lunch all the time. It never ceases to amaze me how much we have in common?!

Re-reading this passage I think you were trying to say
"Turks are NOT monsters." If not I dont know why you talk to so many monsters. And yes Turks and Greeks have A LOT in coming, Turks are normal people too. Turks are like all people of the med, who enjoy drining, dancing, being with friends and family and are proud of their beautiful country. Yet, Greece likes to equate Ottoman govt past with the Turkish people. And Greeks continue to lash out at Turkey, even when they move to other countries like the US where they made MIDNIGHT EXPRESS which totally misrepresents or BIG FAT GREEK WEDDING with its racist slurs against TUrks in order to get everyone on their side.

As for threatening with war, Greek politicians are as bad as Turkish ones. The truth is always exaggerated. In Turkish papers Greece is always the one protesting any exercises with Turkey or is ready to go to War! I guess something else Turks and Greeks have in common !

But looking at the international scene, Greece uses the fear thing to gain foriegn aid from other European countries and the US (with its strong Greek lobby). Turkey doesn't threaten war its still contending with PKK terrorists in the East and cannot execute a war or wants too. Your reading too much Greek proaganda.

quote: As for your arguments about ancient Greece you are of course partly right. The Iliad is not a history book it's a poem and not to take literally, although we base a lot of our history on that, because of lack of other written material of the era. On the other side in the times you mention things were quite different annd the comparison is a little unfair. You always have to keep in mind the context of the events' time

Unfair? why because the context of time does not favor Greece's view of itself? Just like its unfair to hold Ottoman past to modern Turkey. OR to forget that in the past when the Ottoman did occupy Greece the context of the time shows that the Ottoman rule was no different than any of the other countries treatment of its subjects. The 1800s were horrible times, and the Ottomans were overthrown, yet Greece still is angered?

quote: On the other side I've also met Turks who have been in Thessaloniki and are still drooling over it, so I come to the point again that we have a lot in common and that we should actually work on these instead of inflaming the Status Quo.

I agree totally, where is paleogoius?

quote: On the other side you have to understand that we were under the Ottoman rule for more than 400 years and that has left a bitterness, much like the slavery for blacks in America and a lot of other similar situations throughout the globe.

Understandable, and the Turks were under ottman rule TOO! So why is modern Turkey held accountable?

But as a side note, I think it should have been the Turks under Ataturk instead of Ottomans under Osman. And Scientific and Industrious doesn't make sense to me
either.

AS I said in the opening, it looks like this may finally be turning to a more civilized debate on the past instead of an emotional outburst on all sides. Now only if Turk and Greek leaders could do the same.

Thank you for the post hope to see more soon.

	04-10-2002 01:49									#187
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Well, then we should stop holding the Germans accountable for the Holocaust then?! Funny thing is that in "our books", it was the Turks who did the atrocities in Cyprus?! Goes a short way to show you that the truth has always two sides and if you only see the one your half blind!

Now, I am not saying we are not sympathetic to the Kurds (I personally do not condone terrorists and I think that's the view of all Greeks) but if I remember correctly it was Turkey who in April of 1994 went into Northern Iraq to purue terrorists with freshly delivered (second hand) military material from Germany and the US. The western news channels and other news media convienently forgot that. There were a "small massacre" of civilians in villages that though to have harbored terrorists. Besides it's only lately that you started accepting the kurdish as a minority and gave them the freedom of having their own schools and newspapers. To me that shows progress and i welcome it. As for Germany I'd thhink that it is pro-turkish as is US for reasons that I understand and I accept.

As for us invading Turkey in 1922, well if you go back to the 13th and 14th century Asia Minor was in Greek (i.e. Byzantine) hands and we thought that it was our duty to free the lands. It was only in 1914 taht the area I come form was freed from the ottoman rule.

Least but not last about the context of time thing, well Sparta back then used to throw crippled kids over a cliff (the legend goes) and it was acceptable behaviour, so it is rather unfair to compare it with our times i.e. 19th century onwards, when basic human rights started being recognized more or less.

As for you saying that politicians should start listening to us I understand, accept and applaud it. But I think it will take time, steps are being taken in the right direction and more will be taken. We should look to our future and learn from the past. The wars and conflicts that we had brought us nowhere but together we could actually form a powerhouse that can bridge Europe with the Middle East and other countries. I once read somewhere a saying: Life is too short to nurture hate and hold grudges. That's the way I think.

CalcII, I guess it still shows that deep inside you feel Korean and you want to be indetifies as one.

So long...

PS: Another very funny thing is that you mentioned that the Greeks are projected as blood thirsty in Turkey, well the same goes for us in Greek communities, that's very ironic. I think though that business and exchange of goods, invetsments, all from the private sector can bring the countries closer together that those damned politicians.

	04-10-2002 10:27									#188
	Remove this text

Haha Pioneer you can never get rid of the garbage you fathers and fathers before you taught you... It's the power of propaganda... no matter how I hard I try to remain neutral and view my self as a cosmopolitan, I will always secretly dig up a nationalistic feeling especially in the case of sports event like world cup. Nations will remain as long as people see differnece in interest amongst each other... its sad, but we can trying to make the best of it as wat we have in this real world....

quote: THanks for your reply, it looks like this may finally be turning to a more civilized debate on the past instead of an emotional outburst on all sides. Now only if Turk and Greek leaders could do the same.

great to here this thread is heading in the positive direction. Sadly, as much as how good it sounds, in real world it would be much easier to win vote stirring masses in the frenzy of emotional energy then educating the people to think unbiasedly and consider others view. Ah~ the dark side of politics.... System allows the Good guys tactics to almost destined itself to fail!~

	04-10-2002 10:50									#189
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What would be the best suited traits for the Ottomans (not the turks) in your opinion, E ?

PS I know the Ottomans were turks, so read "... for the Ottoman Empire".

	04-10-2002 13:07									#190
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Correct CalcII, but you can learn to surpress your feelings that come from these teachings and view the matter as unbiased as possible. Sadly, it's true that you can stir the masses by ways of stirring nationalism and patriotism. A good example of that would be Bush and his rhetoric in the few weeks or so.

Tiberius, for the Ottomans I would choose btwn scientific, expansionistic and militaristic. I personally favor the latter two but I would have to play the game at least once before I can make up my mind.


So long...

	04-10-2002 15:36									#191
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i think firaxis should put Turks instead of Ottomans in the game.Also Ottoman specialities are not industrious and scientific,they must be militaristic and expansionistic which suit better.

I also want to thank who defended my nation in the light of history against against who attacked honor of my nation.

"I do not command you to fight,I command you to die!"
Colonel Mustafa Kemal during War of Gallipoli

	04-10-2002 15:42									#192
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Hurvanus(Urban ýn Turkish)is Hungarian which were originally Turco-Tartar race.But this was centuries ago when they first set foot to Europe

	04-10-2002 22:25									#193
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Palailogos is back. Unfortunately due to University studies i will be able to reply only on weekends. So my Turkish friends, please be patient.

	04-10-2002 22:47									#194
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I find E's arguments disturbing. He refers to Graico-turcish struggle as a game. Sore looser?!!! Repeatedly beaten?!!

People lost their lives,their families during the various conflicts, you just can't view things from a winner's or looser's side.

And why should i not hold modern Turkey acountable for Ottoman crimes? Because of the Young Turk's revolution? They were worse. Intent on creating a national state, they eliminated most foreign races in the boundaries of the old Ottoman Empire. Armenians first.
I have never reffered to a population exhange as ethnic-cleasning. I meant the expulsion of Greek nationals after the 1919-22 war.

I admit you have a point in blaming the Greeks as complainers. I am glad foreigners see it that way. Unfortunately our leaders do not. Instead of asking everybody for help we should be strengthening our country to face any threat. It was our failure to protect The Empire that led to the Fall of Constantinople, not "unprovoced, unjust, etc.. Turkish aggression".

Last edited by Palaiologos on 05-10-2002 at 12:05

	04-10-2002 22:53									#195
	Put an end to popups!

And as for your arguments about the Minoans and Lydians i don't think they are even worth a counter-argue.

About PKK i camps i wish it was true but it isn't.

	05-10-2002 12:04									#196
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And by the way i live in Thessaloniki. It is not the Turks who are drooling over it, but the Bulgarians, Serbs, and Skopjans.

	05-10-2002 17:29									#198
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Skopjans??

Are thry not Macedonians?

	05-10-2002 19:32									#199
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quote: Originally posted by Myrddin Skopjans?? Are thry not Macedonians?

NO.

	05-10-2002 19:42									#200
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@Myrddin :throws oil in the fire:

I guess to a grrek that statement is similar to the statement that a Welsh is British or Scots are british!

Anyway, Palaiologos gave you a direct answer.

So long...

	06-10-2002 20:57									#201
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And what about the Republic? Do you Turks believe it was the Ottoman's preffered goverment??

I think not.

	06-10-2002 22:06									#202
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What DO you think is their prefered government??

Monarchy?

Despotism?

	06-10-2002 22:21									#203
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Monarchy.

	07-10-2002 07:03									#204
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quote: Originally posted by The Pioneer @Myrddin :throws oil in the fire: I guess to a grrek that statement is similar to the statement that a Welsh is British or Scots are british! Anyway, Palaiologos gave you a direct answer. So long...

The Welsh and Scots are British- they aren't English.

The confusion usually arises from people abroad assuming England=Great Britain/United Kingdom, or sports commentators in Great Britain who, when a non-English team from the United Kingdom succeeds in reaching the final stages of a competition, suddenly get perplexed over what exactly constitutes British/English/Irish/Scottish/Welsh.

	07-10-2002 13:21									#205
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Molly, I do know that. I was giving Myrddin an example of insulting his statement is.

I would think that it would be despotism, since the Pashas was the one that ruled despotical. But despotism has a lot of drawbacks in Civ III and I would go for Monarchy.

So long...

	07-10-2002 16:25									#206
	Ottomans ruled through monarchy Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I think all of u know this, Ottomans were a sovereign like Habsburgs and ruled their subjects by monarchy.

	07-10-2002 16:37									#207
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When I just look what people wrote was not about the game but about politics.I do not think any nation is blood thirsty or cruel but their cruelties because of their leaders.If a man like Genghis would rule in Greece I think Greeks would terrorize the civilizied world or if Mongols would be a settled nation instead of a nomadic nation they would be more peacefull.
So all of these conflicts are because of leaders who see the only way of solving their problems with power.
We are all children of God whatever u believe or not so we are all brothers and sisters.
Let peace a chance.

	07-10-2002 17:34									#208
	Tired of ads?

@Favorius

I think that the next time thinks heat up around the Aegean we should instead play an MP and solve the matter, how much more peaceful and fun can it get?

So long...

	09-10-2002 02:32									#209
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by FavoriusTheTurc When I just look what people wrote was not about the game but about politics.I do not think any nation is blood thirsty or cruel but their cruelties because of their leaders.If a man like Genghis would rule in Greece I think Greeks would terrorize the civilizied world or if Mongols would be a settled nation instead of a nomadic nation they would be more peacefull. So all of these conflicts are because of leaders who see the only way of solving their problems with power. We are all children of God whatever u believe or not so we are all brothers and sisters. Let peace a chance.

its not just leaders, its many other outside environmental factors that causes the effect. Making "who stole the cookie from the cookie jar" game ala history style. Indeed, that game seems to get played alot in history when it comes to undesirable responsibilities like crime and atrocities.

"Calc II stole the cookies from the cookie Jar!"
"Who me?"
"Yes you"
"Couldn't be"
"Then who?"
"The pioneer stole the cookie from the cookie jar!"
(and repeats)

	09-10-2002 15:59									#210
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It is not the leaders that cause bloodbaths. It is the geopolitical goals of the nations. WWII would happen anyway, Hitler or not. Adolf just added a personal touch on the conflict.
Greece's and Turkey's geopolitical interests come in conflict, that's why animosity has arisen between the two nations. The Byzantine Empire although in constant war with the Turks was in fact a devoted ally of the Mongol Horde, who were far more bloodthirsty than the Turks.
This discussion has already taken place many pages before on this thread. I have continiusly urged all the people who post here to read the whole thing before posting anything. Please do.