30-08-2002 20:02									#1
	Patch idea: Units need buildings Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

The idea is:
You need stable building for horsemen, knights, etc.
You need factory to build tanks and modern units.
You need carpenter's house city improvement to build caravels.

Is it good?

	30-08-2002 21:11									#2
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Muxec,

And you're not the only one: the mod I've been working on has building prerequisites for most units.

In the same theme, I have been assigning prerequisite buildings for many of the wonders, too. Imagine building the Great Lighthouse and not even having a harbour in the city. Or the Great Library and no basic library, though this example is open to revision.

The only problem is that this may complicate things for the AI Civ's and their notorious lack of effort to build improvments. I know they can handle having a population cost for each unit, but it may prevent them from starting to build some units or wonders in my case if they won't build the prerequisite improvment.

This bears some testing to see if the coding can handle it. But I do like the idea. It works well in other games like AoE2 and such.

D.

	30-08-2002 21:42									#3
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Gen.Dragolen Muxec, And you're not the only one: the mod I've been working on has building prerequisites for most units. D.

Absolutely. And like the buildings/wonders require buildings idea.

Am very curious how you are doing this with the existing game?

What would be encouraging is if you can do it, then there's no reason Fireaxis can't impliment this at some point.

Is it just one building required or several - some cases like carriers IMHO should require several.

Getting the ai to build the right buildings would be better than what I'm doing now to cut down unreasonable numbers of units on ai's part: boosting the maintenance costs.

	30-08-2002 22:23									#4
	Support Apolyton

Now, this is a good idea! They don't need to introduce it in the standard rules, but it should absolutely be an option in the editor!

	31-08-2002 00:29									#5
	Inflate your Upload Space

See HoMM3 to example of this idea.

	31-08-2002 00:36									#6
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I disagree. In my opinion, such buildings only increase tedium... and remind me too much of bad RTS games. For example: If you need a factory to build a tank, why not just ditch the factory and add more shields to the tank cost? From what I'm seeing here, this is more like a "hey, neat idea" proposal as to one that actually changes gameplay for the better. I'm all for it if it does something, but all your idea seems to do is add unecessary hurdles to building basic units.

	31-08-2002 02:08									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Optimizer Now, this is a good idea! They don't need to introduce it in the standard rules, but it should absolutely be an option in the editor!

right, to keep everybody happy.

	31-08-2002 09:16									#8
	Support Apolyton

I agree that it should be an option in the editor, but cyclotron7 makes a good point.

I made a mod where a lot of wonders had building-prerequisities; seemed like a neat idea. But I don't have it anymore, mainly because the AI couldn't handle it so the wonder race got too easy for me. Also it did add tedium, as I mostly felt bothered having to build stuff that I otherwise didn't necessarily need.

A more fun idea might be if certain buildings reduced the shield-cost of certain wonders and/or units. No precedent for that in the Civ games, so I don't expect to see it.

	31-08-2002 09:19									#9
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by hr_oskar A more fun idea might be if certain buildings reduced the shield-cost of certain wonders and/or units. No precedent for that in the Civ games, so I don't expect to see it.

Actually, such buildings already exist. Factories and power plants add shields, which is the same thing as reducing the cost of wonders, units, and buildings. There is a definite precedent. As for buildings that only benefit certain types of projects, there is less of a history of that, but I would fail to see why this is more desirable than the present system.

	31-08-2002 09:53									#10
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Well, I meant that that would be more desirable than the idea of building-requirements.

And obviously I did not mean general production boost given by Factories and such.

	31-08-2002 15:52									#11
	Re: Patch idea: Units need buildings Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by muxec The idea is: You need stable building for horsemen, knights, etc. You need factory to build tanks and modern units. You need carpenter's house city improvement to build caravels. Is it good?

I like the idea...we have had more threads about this...

As long as it's not a improvement required for every unit...

	01-09-2002 01:27									#12
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Gen.Dragolen And you're not the only one: the mod I've been working on has building prerequisites for most units.

How do you manage to do this? There's currently no way to select a building anywhere on the unit screen.

	01-09-2002 06:33									#13
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

So then, Willem how many threads on this same topic have you participated in?

barrumpa bum bum

	01-09-2002 20:41									#14
	Tired of ads?

More than a few now. I'm in favour of the idea myself, but I see no way of implementing it. Perhaps I've missed something?

Although I can see that it might pose a problem for the AI, if it never builds the needed structure. I think, if it is possible, it should be restricted to only a few units. ICBMs and Tactical Nukes would be good, as would UUs.

	01-09-2002 21:09									#15
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Willem:

Would like to see it especially used for more modern units like naval (battleship & carrier), aircraft in general, and armor - there were never enough armored divs or panzer divs to go around. In real life even for the US now, carriers are only built in one place. Although the British are modularizing construction at many yards, as I understand, of their two new full-sized ones to be fielded by 2015 - to keep their shipbuilding industry as whole going. Surely for the ones you mention too.

	02-09-2002 02:27									#16
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Willem as would UUs.

That seems like a pretty poor idea, IMO. UUs are meant to be upgraded versions of regular units; they have no drawbacks, only benefits. If you make a UU weaker than the regular unit in any area, you will be hurting the civ more than helping it. Imagine: We now complain about UUs that aren't much better than the base unit. With you idea, imagine the complaining of a unit that is actually worse than the base unit...

IMO, shields and production buildings make all of this building stuff categorically unecessary. I have yet to hear what buildings would add to gameplay that is not already covered by the present system... all I have seen is what they would detract.

	02-09-2002 19:05									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

After you "build" a cavalry, the only thing that you need is food for the horse

	02-09-2002 19:48									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I think it's a good idea AND I think it would add to the strategy aspects of the game.

Think about it. You send out a settler into the middle of the jungle to set up a base camp (city size 1) and I'm supposed to believe that this place can immediately start popping out MA:s and nuclear missles or, even worse, Space Ship parts?

But I agree with all of the people who say that it shouldn't be overkill. No I just think that the factory requirement for a tank it reasonable.

	03-09-2002 03:50									#19
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by fittstim Think about it. You send out a settler into the middle of the jungle to set up a base camp (city size 1) and I'm supposed to believe that this place can immediately start popping out MA:s and nuclear missles or, even worse, Space Ship parts?

First off, a town of 10,000 is hardly a base camp. Second, if you decide to build a missile or wonder, it takes a few hundred years. Which makes perfect sense... I mean, since your civ has all the resources, it should be no problem to have the resources ran into a small town and finish the job in say, 80 years. That sounds more than realistic to me. Why you would want to do it, however, is another matter altogether...