01-09-2002 23:10									#91
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quote: Originally posted by dudemanjack Here's some statistics about crimes where people were under the influence of drugs: http://www.whitehousedrugpolicy.gov...dex.html#table1 24.5 and 29.0 % of state and federal violent crimes were committed by people who were under the influence of drugs or alcohol. 39% of motor vehicle thefts were by people on drugs as well. So tell me why we should legalize drugs?

If you listen to David, it's because it's "None of the Guv'ments Damn buisness!"

	01-09-2002 23:11									#92
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quote: I think Alcohol is a problem, and will continue to be a problem. If I thought there were a feasible way to completely Ban alcohol (The USN and the other Armed Services are drifting in this direction, I've noticed) I would be all for it. Alcohol causes far to much heartache and pain for it to be completely unregulated. We took a step in the right direction increasing the legal drinking age limit, now I think places that serve alcohol need to be more concientious about letting a patron hop in a car and drive off.

So basically, you don't think that adults should be able to make their own decisions - Big Brother should do it for them.

And you do realize banning alcohol would require a Constitutional amendment, right?
Well, technically banning drug use does too, but we don't have one...so maybe not

quote: Drugs are also one of the big drivers of crime in the United States. Possibly the Biggest driver of criminal activity. Cracking down on drugs, at the source (which would be the people who use the drugs, not the growers) would help society alot.

That's correct - people rob others in order to buy drugs. But that has nothing to do with the act of drug use, that has to do with people deciding that stealing is OK. There's a place for those people - jail. But people who just want to use drugs, and don't hurt anyone, don't belong in jail.

Look, here's my basic position. Drugs should be legal, because drug use itself doesn't hurt anyone. But if you commit a crime under the influence, you should of course be prosecuted. This protects the rights of people who want to use drugs without committing crimes, and it puts criminals behind bars. What's the problem?

Just separate the act of drug use and the crime of burglary, or assault, or driving under the influence, or whatever the crime may be. Punish one, not the other.

	01-09-2002 23:12									#93
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quote: If you listen to David, it's because it's "None of the Guv'ments Damn buisness!"

To a degree, that's always my position.
But more to the point, those statistics are meaningless. I'm not going to get in a car while doing drugs, so why should I be punished for the actions of others. But if I *DO* drive under the influence, I should be prosecuted, because that's where the real harm is, not the act of smoking weed, or doing coke, or whatever.

	01-09-2002 23:13									#94
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd If prostitutes are kept against their will, that's kidnapping - but kidnapping and prostitution are not related. Kidnapping victimizes people, but the act of paying for sex hurts no one.

Have you ever heard of economic enslavement?

That happens allthe time in a free market and happens to ,ost if not all prostitues. That is that they have no choice but to be a prostitute because the owe the pimps money, have drug habits, and/or have no skills and no way of getting any.

Economic enslavement is the reason why your plan is evil.

Jon Miller

	01-09-2002 23:15									#95
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These aren't in any particular order of importance...

#1 Legalize and tax drugs (marijuana and shrooms at the very least)

#2 Legalize, tax, and regulate prostitution

#3 Prevent elected politicians from fundraising for others

#4 Make health care and education non-profit industries and entities

#5 Put profit caps on energy and telecom industries

#6 Enforce current regulations in other corporate sectors, possibly de-regulate areas

#7 Separate religion and government in every way possible

#8 Increase federal funding to education and raise teacher salaries

#9 Offer government backed contracts for the construction of high speed mag lev rails (including but not limited to federal funds and tax breaks)

#10 Offer government backed contracts and other incentives for the overhaul of the oil infrastructure to accomodate hydrogen fuel cell technology.

#11 Pass and enforce gun licensing programs, fund studies to track the sale of illegal weapons and propose new solutions to curb the sale of illegal arms

#12 After America is cleaned up, offer the same government based contracts and incentives to build farming, transportation, energy, and telecom infrastructures of third world countries...

	01-09-2002 23:18									#96
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quote: Originally posted by dudemanjack Here's some statistics about crimes where people were under the influence of drugs: http://www.whitehousedrugpolicy.gov...dex.html#table1 24.5 and 29.0 % of state and federal violent crimes were committed by people who were under the influence of drugs or alcohol. 39% of motor vehicle thefts were by people on drugs as well. So tell me why we should legalize drugs?

Drugs OR alcohol... I seriously would like to see some credible stats showing that people commit crimes under the influence of marijuana. As of yet, eating tons of junk food and watching crude comedies isn't illegal. Get off your high horse.

Plus, the prohibition causes much more crime than people on drugs or alcohol combined. Don't even think about using crime stats for your argument because your strawman will get burnt to the ground.

	01-09-2002 23:20									#97
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Begone, you commie.

	01-09-2002 23:22									#98
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quote: That happens allthe time in a free market and happens to ,ost if not all prostitues. That is that they have no choice but to be a prostitute because the owe the pimps money, have drug habits, and/or have no skills and no way of getting any.

That sounds very much like their own fault. Don't expect me to bail you out if you're "economically enslaved" - you should have been more responsible.

	01-09-2002 23:22									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Lonestar Drugs are also one of the big drivers of crime in the United States. Possibly the Biggest driver of criminal activity. Cracking down on drugs, at the source (which would be the people who use the drugs, not the growers) would help society alot.

I think elimination of harmful drugs is a good thing, (although I do not believe the risks of some drugs such as alcohol outweigh the pleasure it gives to society).


The thing you need to be careful about when eliminating sources of hard drugs is that the price will rise, the addiction will remain, and you will get more crime to pay for the addiction.

A wholistic approach is required - remove the demand aswell as the supply.

	01-09-2002 23:25									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Drugs OR alcohol... I seriously would like to see some credible stats showing that people commit crimes under the influence of marijuana. As of yet, eating tons of junk food and watching crude comedies isn't illegal. Get off your high horse.

Why should I? *I* have never used drugs or alchohol, and I've never been in any sort of legal/traffic incident/ And I'm in the demographic mostly likely to have that sort of problem.

quote: Plus, the prohibition causes much more crime than people on drugs or alcohol combined. Don't even think about using crime stats for your argument because your strawman will get burnt to the ground.

Do *you* have proof of that, or are you just running off The Untouchables?

	01-09-2002 23:27									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin I think elimination of harmful drugs is a good thing, (although I do not believe the risks of some drugs such as alcohol outweigh the pleasure it gives to society). The thing you need to be careful about when eliminating sources of hard drugs is that the price will rise, the addiction will remain, and you will get more crime to pay for the addiction. A wholistic approach is required - remove the demand aswell as the supply.

<----which would be why I said "The people who use drugs..."

	01-09-2002 23:27									#102
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quote: Do *you* have proof of that, or are you just running off The Untouchables?

Simple logic. If you ban something, and people still do it, they're committing crimes. That makes the crime rate increase, and fills up jails with ordinary people while leaving real criminals on the streets.

But prohibition also raises the cost - if drugs were legalized (and thus cheaper, due to free market competition), the number of people stealing in order to buy drugs would probably go down. Also, incidentally, drugs would probably be safer, too - you wouldn't see cocaine laced with strychnine, or things like that, more than likely.

	01-09-2002 23:29									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Lonestar <----which would be why I said "The people who use drugs..."

I was agreeing with you.

	01-09-2002 23:29									#104
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd That sounds very much like their own fault. Don't expect me to bail you out if you're "economically enslaved" - you should have been more responsible.

People are often born that way....

Kids born to rich families hardly ever have that happen to them, those born to poor families in the inner cities almost always have that happen to them.

Jon Miller

	01-09-2002 23:32									#105
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quote: Kids born to rich families hardly ever have that happen to them, those born to poor families in the inner cities almost always have that happen to them.

The fact that someone was born poor doesn't mean they have to turn to drugs. They may do it, but that sounds more like a parenting and personal problem, than my problem.

	01-09-2002 23:36									#106
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a lot of rich people abuse drugs

they just don't get ****ed as often when they do

BTW, you ignored two of the three reasons

"have no skills and no way of getting any"

and

"owe the pimps money"

you world would have more and more people like this (except in place of pimp put capitalist)

Jon Miller

	01-09-2002 23:38									#107
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I was born into a middle class family but my dad has been steadily moving up income brackets. I seen a lot of poverty and drug use where I used to live in Ecuador.

You cannot discredit a social class as ignorant.

Drugs should and will remain illegal in the US as far as I can tell... you libertarians are just dreaming. Even the democrats will continue the drug war... however bloody (and in your opinion a failure) it even may be, it will nonetheless continue and not stop.

	01-09-2002 23:43									#108
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quote: "have no skills and no way of getting any"

Not my problem. But everyone has the skills to work at McDonald's or Wendy's or KFC, and everyone can dig ditches, and everyone can be janitors. Oh, and guess what? Everyone can join the Army and get skills there - hell, they can even make a career out of the military. Don't tell me no one has options - they do.

quote: "owe the pimps money"

And again, guess WHAT? Not my problem. Don't borrow money from pimps.

	01-09-2002 23:43									#109
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quote: Drugs should and will remain illegal in the US as far as I can tell... you libertarians are just dreaming. Even the democrats will continue the drug war... however bloody (and in your opinion a failure) it even may be, it will nonetheless continue and not stop.

I know.

	01-09-2002 23:48									#110
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not everyone can join the army

and sometimes there are not even Wendies jobs arround

and they borrow money from the pimps or captialists to survive, cause otherwise they will starve

life has been too good recently, and you have no clue about how hard it can be

Jon Miller

	01-09-2002 23:48									#111
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quote: OK, smarty pants, how would you "fix" America?

Local anesthesia, scalpel and sutures.

If pressed, the sutures and local are optional.

	01-09-2002 23:49									#112
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd And again, guess WHAT? Not my problem. Don't borrow money from pimps.

That's pretty UnChristian of you.

	01-09-2002 23:50									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Lonestar Why should I? *I* have never used drugs or alchohol, and I've never been in any sort of legal/traffic incident/ And I'm in the demographic mostly likely to have that sort of problem. Do *you* have proof of that, or are you just running off The Untouchables?

If you really want me to I can bury you in proof. It is almost common knowledge in the US that the prohibition of drugs forces people who do not commit real crimes to become associated with murderers and gangsters to get their drugs. But you sound like one of those fools who thinks that America is winning its drug war. I've got some chores to do around the house and later I'm going out. But if you really want to, I can post piles of proof supporting my point. I just wanted to save you the humiliation of defeat before sending your strawman down in flames.

	01-09-2002 23:55									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Fez Drugs should and will remain illegal in the US as far as I can tell... you libertarians are just dreaming. Even the democrats will continue the drug war... however bloody (and in your opinion a failure) it even may be, it will nonetheless continue and not stop.

Most of the Democrats support the prohibition of drugs. But do you really believe that marijuana should stay illegal.

I think the problem with this discussion is that you cannot lump marijuana in with crack. Every substance is different and should be dealt with accordingly. Any time you generalize anything, you are creating a problem.

My big itch is the prohibition of marijuana. That's what I want to see legalized. Beyond that, there are more important problems to tackle. I just feel that the prohibition of drugs in general is creating more problems than it is solving.

If you truly believe that all drugs are immoral (alcohol, tobacco, marijuana, and hard drugs) than vote for legalization and then support rehab and anti-addiction programs. Prohibition puts violent criminals and addicts in the same category. Addiction is a separate problem and needs to be dealt with outside the realm of law enforcement. That is why prohibition in general is wrong.

	01-09-2002 23:56									#115
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Jon,

quote: not everyone can join the army

Right now the military is in so desperate need of new recruits, that they have lowered education standards drastically, and in some cases offer obscene bonuses.

quote: and sometimes there are not even Wendies jobs arround

Have you any idea what the turnover rate is at a fast food restaurant or a retail store? It's incredible, I can tell you that from experience. Even if there isn't a job today, there might be tomorrow.

quote: and they borrow money from the pimps or captialists to survive, cause otherwise they will starve

They aren't willing to swallow their pride and go get a job that is beneath them. That sounds like their fault.

Lonestar,

quote: That's pretty UnChristian of you.

Tough. Religion and politics shouldn't be mixed. What I believe about God has nothing to do with what I believe is right and wrong in government.

	02-09-2002 00:09									#116
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Have you any idea what the turnover rate is at a fast food restaurant or a retail store? It's incredible, I can tell you that from experience. Even if there isn't a job today, there might be tomorrow. .

Could you live on a Wendy's wage? I've done the math when I worked at Pizza Hut back in the day, it is simply not possible to work-full time at a minimum wage job and support yourself, let alone a family.

	02-09-2002 00:09									#117
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Jon, Right now the military is in so desperate need of new recruits, that they have lowered education standards drastically, and in some cases offer obscene bonuses. Have you any idea what the turnover rate is at a fast food restaurant or a retail store? It's incredible, I can tell you that from experience. Even if there isn't a job today, there might be tomorrow. They aren't willing to swallow their pride and go get a job that is beneath them. That sounds like their fault. Lonestar, Tough. Religion and politics shouldn't be mixed. What I believe about God has nothing to do with what I believe is right and wrong in government.

aomwtimwa there are noi jobs

you should realy read some history

you are very misguided

Jon Miller

	02-09-2002 00:10									#118
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quote: aomwtimwa

What does this word mean?

	02-09-2002 00:10									#119
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Sava,

quote: Could you live on a Wendy's wage? I've done the math when I worked at Pizza Hut back in the day, it is simply not possible to work-full time at a minimum wage job and support yourself, let alone a family.

So work two jobs.

Jon,

quote: aomwtimwa there are noi jobs

What?

	02-09-2002 00:12									#120
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Tough. Religion and politics shouldn't be mixed. What I believe about God has nothing to do with what I believe is right and wrong in government.

Don't let God hear you say that. You aren't much of a christian if it doesn't affect a whole part of your life & your beliefs. You're either in or you ain't, and it sounds like you ain't.