01-09-2002 06:27									#1
	Suggestions to make turnchats viable Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Firstly sorry to all those who made the chat - I was almost an hour late. All who were there know that it was SLOOOOOOOW. We got 210 BC (which I started last time) basically finished, made peace with France and whored, whored, whored, and this took over 2 hours IIRC.

This thread is for suggestions on how to improve the speed of chats. Instead of just plain throwing in the towel on chats for good (which was my initial gut reaction), I wanted to see one last time if there are any ways we can keep some kind of chat going without all the crap. Turnthreads are good, but not as fun for others. Perhaps we can only do chats now when there is comparatively little to do, say when we settle down and decide to just develop for a change. Right now things are complex and there is a lot to move and change, so maybe we should stop the chats until the wars are over and our troops are reallocated.

Can you think of anything else?

	01-09-2002 06:38									#2
	Solution ??? Put an end to popups!

If it is slow because of mIRC then we could always use something like this program written in Visual Baisc. It allows one person to host and anyone with the hosts IP to join the chat. You can also draw pictures with it.

I like the turnchats and think we should find a solution. If it is slow because we had a lot to do then we could always just do a citizen chat type thing where we voice opinions and then the president can play the turns whenever they want. Basically we can make it more casual.

Attachment: manychat.zip
This has been downloaded 1 time(s).

	01-09-2002 06:49									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

It is slow because we're bad at making decisions in the chat. Connection speed is not the issue, though STABILITY is a problem. We couldn't use DALnet this time because the ENTIRE THING was down. Maybe they were doing maintanence or something.

	01-09-2002 06:59									#4
	Tired of ads?

Well all the orders need to be infront of the president before hand. Then they are systematically followed with the president giving a message. If something comes up, then they ask. This is how I see turnchats to now work. If nothing comes up, and all the orders are perfect, then the turnchat should just be a list of followed orders by the pres.

Of course there is still an "anything else?" at the end of each turn.

	01-09-2002 07:02									#5
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Things were slow from the sheer amount of things to do. Even relying solely on the Ministers and others there for the orders, I had to read them, in some cases confirm or wait for various discussions to be concluded, switch to Civ, then carry them out, switch back, then change colour, report the moves in both rooms, change colour again if necessary.... and that's ONE move.

The techwhoring took place without any real need for orders - just "get what you can" more or less, and even that took me about 10 minutes, as I had to negotiate with each civ, get what I could, then when I was done with all of them, I needed to do it all again to offer what I had just got.

The slowness results from this being a damn busy time, and it MAY be possible that, when all we are moving is workers, turnchats could be done (if being rather dull for all concerned) at the same speed they used to be done. It is clear that warchats may be impossible except for certain key times.

With chats, I could do all the boring shifting sh*t around, and when there is an attack to do I post the save and evereyone who can gets to attack as well. That way all the dull shite of the game is just done by me, and the more interesting ass-whooping gets to be done by all. What do you all think of this?

	01-09-2002 07:03									#6
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I like it!

	01-09-2002 07:19									#7
	Inflate your Upload Space

Good idea. One idea i thought of was this, each minster could do there domain and post it for the next(and of course everybody else). Kinda like the old board games where you have a const phase,movement phase, resource phase, combat pahse etc. Only thing is this is not strictly constitutional. If after a minister post, people have a problem then they can complain. Perhaps the actual movemt would have to be done in chat since for play along purposes and since you can't undo that,but everything else could work this way. Another option Pres sends to CP, he sends to MPW, he sends to ME. The clear up trades,workers and city queues. Then he gives to president to actually move units. If the minister have a problem they can ask people in chat. Since each minster knows his area he can play faster.
Aggie

	01-09-2002 07:19									#8
	Remove this text

I think sky is refering to what I said

The pres needs to only pay attention to the chat when a minister wants to be heard. Such as changing an order. OR when the president is waiting for a response.


Nice quote in the sig sky. I wonder who said it *flutters eyes*

	01-09-2002 07:23									#9
	Got spare money?

Aye, I concur. We really need to make sure all the ministers orders are in the President's hands BEFORE a turnchat. We've been pretty good with this for turn threads, we just need to get in the habit of doing it for turn chats as well.

The President then goes an executes the orders. But before ending a turn we can discuss certain issues. For example: Before we ended the turn today, we decided to try and make an attempt to save Napoleton! A spearman was diverted from Geofront to Napoleton (will reach it next turn) while extra spearman were diverted from Ubergorsk and Loveshack to take up the slack. If this would have been a turn thread, an issue like this wouldn't have happened. Now we may in fact have a chance to save Napoleton (we won't know for another few turns).

So turn chats are still beneficial, as hectic as they are. They are in need of a streamlined approach though:

• Ministers need to get orders to Presidednt BEFORE turnchat.
  
• Chat is specifically played according to orders
  
• However, pause at end of turn for any final "thoughts" and new ideas that may arise
  

	01-09-2002 07:28									#10
	Tired of ads?

Why do I hear Trip's voice echoing across the ages?

MWiA, I suggest:

Post turn threads for the collection of ministers' orders and random spam from the plebes like myself (some of which may be useful).

Hold turn chats while you play so that citizens can watch along while you do your thing. A lot of people get a gas from being along for the ride, no need to extinguish that fire.

The important thing is that you play the game and only report things of significance. You post in red (nobody else does). Don't switch colours.

When a question comes up, you either...

a/ act if neither the minister nor the deputy is on hand.
b/ ask the minister or deputy for advice
c/ stop the game and discuss the issue in the chat
d/ stop the chat and come back to report to the nation

Minsters should chat in a different colour. Maybe blue. Who cares?

The bottom line is we elect you to play the game according to the advice of the ministers who we also elect. In the end, you bear the responsibility for the result. The buck has to stop somewhere, and I prefer to glue it to your forehead.

It is only reasonable to allow you the latitude to keep the game going.

Last edited by notyoueither on 01-09-2002 at 08:51

	01-09-2002 08:48									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I am glad that I got out when I did. It looks as if some major changes are needed. I like the idea of having the president use pre-planned orders to do all the boring stuff first, and then having chats to get the important stuff done.

	01-09-2002 20:32									#12
	Increase Your PM Length

Yes - The President types in red; the Ministers in blue and folk like myself in black. Makes it easier to follow.

	01-09-2002 21:09									#13
	Increase Your PM Length

Epistax - was it you? I forgot who said it, so I can't really put that in there.

	02-09-2002 00:03									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

MrWhereIt'sAt and notyoueither are making a good point here.

I myself watched only couple turnchats back when we were preparing the war against Americans. Back in the times when everything was small and simple and moving scouts could be done with separate commands from SMC.

Nowadays it's different. There is NO way each and every move that President makes could be printed to the chat. And there's no need to.

Suggestions: Listen to notyoueither. Play while you're in turnchat and report what you've done to the little citizens. There's no need to tell us if a worker is moving east or any other unnecessary information. As from the view of a citizen, I see the turnchat as a show, which gives us a glimpse of what demogame is. Minister may need more information however.

	02-09-2002 15:46									#15
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Another idea: the basic purpose of a chat was so that all who wanted could make the same moves as the President simultaneously. This requires the Prez to post what they are doing each time. This was one of my biggest worries. Instead of the tedious copy/paste job I had to do each time there was a troop movement to make, could the Ministers NUMBER their orders? That way we need to have one official FINAL set of orders for each Minister, and all I need to do is type in "PW 2" instead of "Workers E of Apolytonia N, E, E". If anyone gets puzzled or hasn't the ability to have the orders thread up on screen, they can ask someone who has the time to answer them for the specific orders.

Sometimes little slipups creep into orders (like NE instead of NW), but these should be obvious enough when going through at least the Minister and the Prez, so shouldn't be any problem, especially with a pre-turnchat.

To summarise what I get out of everyone's posts:

1. Keep going with turnchats (I intend to do them on the weekend, the mid-week one MUST be a turnthread for me - this also means the game will progress a little if the next chat still doesn't work)

2. Have a pre-turnchat to flesh out orders with all Ministers/appointed Deputies who can turn up. I would ask that a representative for each Ministry be there. Any Deputies need not have any power, they would just have the orders for a Ministry in front of them, let us know what they are, and take down any possible alterations/clarifications for the Minister to deal with when they can. When should these be held? Do we need them before the turnthread as well?

3. I only report significant developments in the chat. This is a little tricky as I think I still need to post what I'm doing so that playing along is possible. If we used numbered orders as I mention above, this would speed things up. At the turn end, I could mention only the important developments (only certain troop movements, any WoW construction, wars, alliances etc.). As we have preserve random seed on, any playing with v1.21 shuld see the exact same things as I do, so any detailed looking about could be done by others (not really necessary anyway).

These are the three main ideas I see out of this thread to date, so thanks to all who have contributed them thus far.

Someone tell me if I am wrong in any of these thoughts, and if you have some ideas to add, please, PLEASE do so.

	02-09-2002 19:21									#16
	Inflate your Upload Space

Only one thing...

UnOrthO was talking about a new system of organization for orders in the other thread (http://www.apolyton.net/forums/show...673#post1260027 and following discussion). I think his idea, coupled with yours about the number, and perhaps coupled with the following discussion (including ideas about a really snazzy way of doing html tables to make some orders clearer) would make the best final result.

Also, I think that each deupty minister's power should be stated by the minister before the chat. For instance, if the minister is out of town and the deputy is acting as the minister, then he (or she ) should have the minister's full power. On the other hand, if the Deputy is simply acting as a conduit for the Minister's orders, then he or she should only be able to order exactly what the minister's orders show.

Just a few thoughts...

-- adaMada

	02-09-2002 20:28									#17
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

What if you dont have to post all your moves? You could instead post a save at the forum after each end of a turn. This would enable all people to download it and see what you do without maybe missed instructions and things.

Also, i think the chat must be stopped if instructions run out. All instructions have to be layed out and planned far beforehand, so only unforseeable things will need intervention in the chat.

	02-09-2002 20:43									#18
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

lol, always the same problems with these chats

glad to see fixes are trying to be made tho.

Just remember, the first chat is always the hardest

	03-09-2002 07:02									#19
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Ninot Just remember, the first chat is always the hardest

Especially as it was pretty much all new ministers and pres aswell.

	03-09-2002 09:15									#20
	Support Apolyton

It seems to me any turnchat/thread with alot of tech/trade whoring in it ends up being a slow one. I haven't been to one yet, so I dont know from experience, but looking at the reports combined with when there are complaints it seems that way.

If so the best solution might be to just allow "mini-turns" between real turns where nothing but diplomacy can be done before the actual turn chat so the slow stuff is out of the way.

	03-09-2002 18:52									#21
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by adaMada Only one thing... UnOrthO was talking about a new system of organization for orders in the other thread (http://www.apolyton.net/forums/show...673#post1260027 and following discussion). I think his idea, coupled with yours about the number, and perhaps coupled with the following discussion (including ideas about a really snazzy way of doing html tables to make some orders clearer) would make the best final result. Also, I think that each deupty minister's power should be stated by the minister before the chat. For instance, if the minister is out of town and the deputy is acting as the minister, then he (or she ) should have the minister's full power. On the other hand, if the Deputy is simply acting as a conduit for the Minister's orders, then he or she should only be able to order exactly what the minister's orders show. Just a few thoughts... -- adaMada

I determined the tables would get too huge for all orders and will only work with some positions.

I have a sample up here. I could go through and number them easily enough, so MrWIA or myself would just have to report:
Moving A:1
Moving A:2
Moving B:1
Moving B:2
Conducting trade phase 1: Results
Trade Phase 2: Results
End of turn, anything else from the people?

Next turn.
Moving A:1
etc...

This would require those attending the chats and wanting to play along to have a copy of the orders on hand, but should speed things right along, and it makes a checklist for whomever is playing.

	03-09-2002 19:54									#22
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Well this is a different idea from anything which ive heard and Im not sure how viable it is, but I thought id throw it out there anyways.

We could abandon the idea of only the president plays the game and only during turn threads/turn chats altogether and let each minister play his part of the turn on a set schedule then post the save for the next minister along with a sumary of his part of the turn and/or any requests for other ministers.

For example, on Sunday the city planner gives orders to all the cities and posts the save. Then on Monday the SMC moves all military units or waits with units he has no specific plans for then posts his save. On Tuesday the Foreign minister handles all diplomacy and posts the save for the next minister. On Wednesday the public works minister moves all workers or waits with ones without any specific purpose, etc. Then finally the president gets the save and finishes the moves for any units not having taken their move yet as he sees fit and ends the turn (and if needed caries out our science advisors orders). Then the next turn can begin for the city planner, etc.

Of course the above is just an example and I might of left some of our ministers out, and we'd probally want to do more than one turn in 5 days like that or such, so it might just go in succession as fast as the ministers get around to their duties. (ie, the SMC knows he always goes after the city planner so if he sees the city planners report with his save, he can go, then the foreign minister knows he can go etc)

It would definately require more organization than we have now to make that work with any sustainable rythm, but like I said Im just trying to propose something that hasn't been thrown out there yet.

	04-09-2002 01:09									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Why dont you then do it on the same day in chat?
Like all ministers pass the save on among each other via the forum. The last one is the pres and he really starts the chat then.
The daily approach will need the citizens interested in the chat itself to be in there every single day ;-)
Sounds like a succession game :-P