01-09-2002 07:10									#1
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What about having sea-bourne versions of armies. Or would it be slightly pointless because of the general pointlessness of having ships (unless escorting a transport).

	01-09-2002 07:28									#2
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Question: If ships are pointless (exception not withstanding), then how do you deal with enemy ships bombarding your cities and destroying your terrain improvements?

	01-09-2002 07:35									#3
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As is, ships are the only way (save ICBMs) to project your power onto another continent, that's important. I think "fleets" would be a great addition to naval warfare. At least there's supposed to be some sort of stack movement for ships in PTW.

	01-09-2002 07:44									#4
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quote: Originally posted by stonewall Question: If ships are pointless (exception not withstanding), then how do you deal with enemy ships bombarding your cities and destroying your terrain improvements?

I tend to ignore them, as the AI has a tendancy to build huge fleets, and I can never match them, until later in the game. Production is always better served else where. Until there is some sort of trade route that can be attacked, ship are a total waste ,apart from transportation (in my opinion).

And as for aircraft....

	01-09-2002 08:20									#5
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quote: I tend to ignore them, as the AI has a tendancy to build huge fleets, and I can never match them, until later in the game. Production is always better served else where. Until there is some sort of trade route that can be attacked, ship are a total waste ,apart from transportation (in my opinion).

You must not be a very good player.

Ok, don't get offended, i'm just kidding. Well, partly.

	01-09-2002 08:35									#6
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I enjoy tooling around on the seas once DDs come on the scene. Prior to that I seldom have the spare production to build much more than a few gallies, caravels and ironclads.

Of course, I don't usually play archpeligo maps. My builds might be different in that case.

	01-09-2002 08:41									#7
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quote: [SIZE=1] You must not be a very good player.

The best, my friend, the best...

	01-09-2002 20:18									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Destroyer I tend to ignore them, as the AI has a tendancy to build huge fleets, and I can never match them, until later in the game. Production is always better served else where. Until there is some sort of trade route that can be attacked, ship are a total waste ,apart from transportation (in my opinion). And as for aircraft....

I don't often notice the AI building HUGE fleets, but perhaps the term is relative. The AI seems to have some of the problems with ships that it has with ground units: It still uses obsolete units well into ind/mod age. My modern fleet of CV, BB, DD runs into a motley crew of frigates, ironclads, DD's, and even a galley all the time.

	01-09-2002 22:28									#9
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Originally posted by stonewall [/SIZE]
Question: If ships are pointless (exception not withstanding), then how do you deal with enemy ships bombarding your cities and destroying your terrain improvements?





I build Artys, then bombers, just to bombard 'em. Once injured, they go home for repairs. Not a perfect solution, but better then sending ships after 'em, as they'll just gang up on YOUR ship, and then you would need to build another and another....

	01-09-2002 23:42									#10
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hi ,

, fleets , .... nope , not intrested , ....

but , it would be nice to open with your mouse a small window at the ocean , this should activate all units inside the window , and then direct them at one point , they would all arrive at the same time there , ...

now , that would be

have a nice day

	02-09-2002 02:44									#11
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I like it, but how would a seaborne leader look? It couldn't be a normal leader, because you might have no transport... he would be just standing in the middle of the sea. Perhaps sea leaders could look like little pt boats or an admirals' barge or something...

	02-09-2002 02:55									#12
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A sea leader could build a Flagship.. this could be like the army unit, and can lead your fleets to battle.
a Sea leader would have to go back to the nearest port or friendly city, once its been created by a ship.

Another good effect of this would be to be able to name leader ships, like the Mary Rose, or Cutty Sark, or Bismark.

It would be nice to have someone like Nelson as a sealeader.

	02-09-2002 15:53									#13
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Sea Leaders? A very good idea. Than we can duck out some naval battle of De Villeneuve against Nelson wohoo.

Concerning the importance of ships it depends on which map you are playing. When it’s almost one big continent than ships are of course useless on an inland world you will be doomed without it. I tend to build a large army and in between a smaller fleet so just enough to be respected by the others as a seapower and so they don't bombard my harbours.

	02-09-2002 15:59									#14
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Personally I would like to see the whole of the naval aspect improved. For example setting up the game so a ship in the middle of an oceon has a chance of intersepting trade. Like WW2 U Boats

	02-09-2002 16:05									#15
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Yes, it is all dependant on which map you play on. At the moment I play on a large Pangea map. There is only one small island, but it is already taken (of course) by the AI. Still i build one galley, just for scouting the map.

But usually I play on continents or archipelago and then you definitely need them. And an army-unit for the seas would be great then! I think it will be more useful than the army unit on land.

	02-09-2002 20:12									#16
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Usually fleets are there to project power and possibility for invsion forces to hit enemy shores- as such the AI is not very convincing- with 8 units max per ship it doesnt really bother anyone much in the latter stages of the game anymore since the AI does not launch combined naval attack yet is limited to coastal bombardment.

With significantly larger troop carrying capacity per ship this may well change!!

Still the AI protecs his cargo ship with merely one (1) escort ship- this is a major fault- why aimlessly roam an empty ocean when U could gather a fleet and go from A to B- well protected and with an invasion army on board ??????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
---

Fleets should be available as escorting units with larger transport capacities available late in the game !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

	03-09-2002 08:10									#17
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Agreed, I'm actually surprised Fleets weren't included in the original build of Civ3. When I read that Armies would be implemented, I pretty much assumed Fleets would be, too. I imagine the reason they didn't was for a couple reasons, including the following:

1. Even though it would be easy to do, they didn't have the time.

2. Researching and naming naval leaders for each Civ would be a pain to do, especially since some of the Civs really don't have any noteworthy Admirals. The first example that comes to mind to me is the (soon to come) Mongols, who certainly weren't known for armadas.

Still, I think Fleets are a necessity for one of the XPs, IMHO.

	03-09-2002 09:45									#18
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THe idea of fleet leader names is puzzling, all I can thing of off hand would be (obviously) Nelson, Ferguson, Doenitz and Yamamoto, so thats one for 4 different countries and it took me about 2 minutes, although they were all very obvious choices.

I cant wait for PTW...

	03-09-2002 14:08									#19
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If you have armies you should have fleets.

Naval commanders have been as decisive as land commnders in many wars, and civ should reflect this.

	04-09-2002 02:44									#20
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How about instead of "sea leaders" you just bulid a Naval Academy or something that appears with magnetism?

	04-09-2002 14:52									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Fighter THe idea of fleet leader names is puzzling, all I can thing of off hand would be (obviously) Nelson, Ferguson, Doenitz and Yamamoto, so thats one for 4 different countries and it took me about 2 minutes, although they were all very obvious choices. I cant wait for PTW...

De Villeneuve, Tegetthoff, John Paul Jones, La Fayette, Riccardi, Wilhelm Canaris (very very famous), Dr. Erich Raeder, Piet Hayn

Want some more ?

	04-09-2002 15:10									#22
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You mean of course Piet Hein.

	04-09-2002 16:34									#23
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This thread may be part of an answer to an earlier thread about the impossibility of dominant civs losing. What's required, as noted above, is an expanded concept of "blockade" for the modern eras. Ships were never really used to blow up roads!! On the other hand, if navel power were more significantly able to impact trade flows and to isolate a dominant power on their own continent, it could change the balance significantly late in the game. For example, a successful interdiction of trade flows could increase unhappiness enough to force the dominant power down from democracy, making an SS build by smaller civs a real risk. Or, if the dominant power trades for any critical resource, cutting that trade flow could render them vulnerable or block the completion of the SS. This looks like a real potential improvement area. In either case, the domnant power would have to leave the safety of their RR system and come out to fight on the ocean, perhaps against an alliance of several smaller civs. Interesting.

	04-09-2002 17:04									#24
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quote: Originally posted by campmajor! You mean of course Piet Hein.

Actually I've read many documentation’s about him (a very interesting and fascinating man) and in one I saw spelled him with "ei" and in one with "ai" and in another one with "ay". So it looks like even historians aren't really sure about it. But I take it from a countryman from him how to spell it. I read somewhere that he is a kind of national hero in the Netherlands is this true? Are there special museums or streets named after him? Well according to his accomplishments it would be understandable.

	05-09-2002 00:44									#25
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quote: Originally posted by jshelr .....On the other hand, if navel power were more significantly able to impact trade flows and to isolate a dominant power on their own continent, it could change the balance significantly late in the game. ......

You CAN use naval forces to interrupt trade. -- all you have to do is blockade each city that has a harbor and all ocean trade will be cut off. Or, if a critical resource is being supplied by, say, France to Egypt, and you are at war with Egypt, you could blockade all French ports to prevent the resource from being traded.

Now, that said, has anyone ever used naval blockades or seen the AI try to use them? I never have.

	05-09-2002 01:10									#26
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Naval blockade is bullshit in this game. You have to completely cover very sea tile in that citie's radius with your warships to block it. If the AI has 10 cities with harbor, then,chances are, you will have a heck of time trying to block them all. And the AI only need 1 turn of relief to continue building advance units throughout his empire.
My idea of blockade is, the presence of 1 single hostile warship for 2 consecutive turns will block the city from trading.
So, if your enemy sails one of his ships into your water, you need to destroy it or ask it to leave right away, else that city is blocked.

	05-09-2002 01:11									#27
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blocking another nation's trade port is course, an act of war.

	05-09-2002 02:14									#28
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quote: Originally posted by stonewall Now, that said, has anyone ever used naval blockades or seen the AI try to use them? I never have.

On the rare occasions when a civ's only connection to the outside world is through one or two harbors, then I have been able to manage a succesful blockade. The Civs tend to build ships and artillery in that city, taking potshots at your ships while virtually impervious, so it does get obnoxious after a while. Generally, though, any Civ so powerful that I would devote 10-20 ships to naval blockade a resource has also managed to build harbors in every coastal city.

	05-09-2002 03:38									#29
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My solution to the blockade problem is to simply make warships cover the squares imediately around them for the purposes of blockade, in this way it will only take 1-ships to blockade a city. Not a perfect fix, but I think its workable.

	05-09-2002 17:06									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Galvatron Actually I've read many documentation’s about him (a very interesting and fascinating man) and in one I saw spelled him with "ei" and in one with "ai" and in another one with "ay". So it looks like even historians aren't really sure about it. But I take it from a countryman from him how to spell it. I read somewhere that he is a kind of national hero in the Netherlands is this true? Are there special museums or streets named after him? Well according to his accomplishments it would be understandable.

Yes, in fact he is a local hero! He once made a victory on the Spanish Silver fleet. We still sing songs about that when playing soccer/football.