01-09-2002 20:12									#1
	Suggestions before ending turn in 210BC Full PM-box? Change here!

Looking at the new 210 BC save I've noticed some dangerous "blunders" in our civilization.

1)Seeberg, Napoleton, and Geofront are now building walls.

Walls only give a 50% percent defensive bonus, only affect the city tile and expire as the city grows.

Barracks on the other hand create veteran units and those units take that +1 hit point wherever they go. Any unit wounded in a city with Barracks COMPLETELY heals at the end of the turn while walls only allow the units to gain back one point of damage. VERY important to heal completely when you are the front.

Barracks in these cities will allow us to upgrade the warriors to swordsmen which is a 50% defensive bonus to spearmen (upgrade to Pikemen) and a 200%/100% offensive/defensive bonus to warriors (upgrade to swordsmen).

So barracks would allow equal to better defensive bonuses than walls, never expire, and create veteran units.

2)Switch to Monarchy and adjust city entertainers appropriately before end of turn to assure no city goes into disorder.

By switching to Monarchy now we can use our gold to finish the barracks in the three before mentioned cities, and I believe our workers can connect them to allow them to upgrade units BEFORE those cities are attacked.

I also believe we can make peace with the Germans before hostilites break out as they have been slow to move and have other conflicts elsewhere. The existence of Munich makes them very peace friendly.

This would allow us to concentrate on annexing the Persians.

	01-09-2002 20:26									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Actually, walls =immediately= provide their bonuses; barracks only after building a unit. But I agree we shoud not build walls.

Actually I wonder if we need barracks in every city. It currently eats up lots of our production capacity. Instead, we'd better produce the veteran units in a limited number of cities.

	01-09-2002 20:29									#3
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

If you have a veteran spearman lose 3 hitpoints defending, the next turn it only has 2 hitpoints.

With Barracks the next turn it would have 4 hitpoints again. Barracks are crucial to defending cities with just a few isolated units.

That's an IMMEDIATE bonus and IMHO a far greater one than a temporary 50% defensive bonus.

	01-09-2002 20:42									#4
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Regarding 1: I agree. Plus, those barracks will come in handy the next time we build up our army.
Regarding 2: IMHO Here It Is and a few cities in Mingapulco will go into civil disorder. We might want to increase the rate of entertainment instead of changing laborers to entertainers but I'll leave that to the rest of you to decide since I'm not a big expert on the impact of the entertainment rate on citizens' moods.

	01-09-2002 22:37									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Actually, the veteran Spearman will have 3 hp next turn. Units in cities w/o barracks recover 2 hp per turn.

	01-09-2002 22:55									#6
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by skywalker Actually, the veteran Spearman will have 3 hp next turn. Units in cities w/o barracks recover 2 hp per turn.

Acording to the rules they only recover one. Now I'm not necessarily saying Firaxis programming always goes by their rules, so you may be right. Still that would take two turns to fully recover and a barracks would fully recover them in 1 turn regardless of whether they were regular, veteran or elite.

	01-09-2002 23:02									#7
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I don't entirely agree with you assessment (sp) on walls.
First, Walls work up until size 7 (i believe) which is higher than we can allow those cities to go to anyways.
Second, they provide immediate benifits that compile onto whatever rank the defender happens to have, no matter where they are from.
Third, they are cheap and cost nothing to maintain. Once built, you never need to look at them again.

Now barracks to have use which walls cannot do, but if you have a city that has a high probability of being attacked by an enemy in a few turns, walls are more approriate than barracks. Assuming the barracks get done in time, they still need to make a unit for the moral boost to take effect. The quicker unit heal rate is nice, however an ambush is an ambush and if there is no one to heal then the point is moot.

I like walls. I like watching huge, powerful armies attack a city and fall one after another because they forgot the TNT at home.

	01-09-2002 23:04									#8
	Inflate your Upload Space

hi ,

GF has some good points , ....



have a nice day

	01-09-2002 23:09									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Just one thing : if walls are of any value, its now, in that kind of situation (in both meanings of circumstances and location).

	01-09-2002 23:10									#10
	Increase Your PM Length

Both would be nice... But I say build the walls first, then the barracks. Anything Germany throws at us this soon can't be sizeable, but it can be strong units.

	01-09-2002 23:14									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT Just one thing : if walls are of any value, its now, in that kind of situation (in both meanings of circumstances and location).

Walls aren't of any value in Civ3.

quote: Originally posted by caesarqbear Both would be nice... But I say build the walls first, then the barracks. Anything Germany throws at us this soon can't be sizeable, but it can be strong units.

No dice, we don't have resources to build both, its one or the other.

Your argument supports barracks as they fully heal after each small attack. There is no situation where walls are superior to barracks for defense, they work in addition to barracks but barracks are better on their own than walls.

	01-09-2002 23:27									#12
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb Walls aren't of any value in Civ3.

A 50% increase in defense value is more than enough to transform a loss in victory.
The only argument justifying your statement would be that in no case we let the ennemy arrived close to the city tile (which is the truly good solution). Are we able to do so right now ?

	01-09-2002 23:32									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT A 50% increase in defense value is more than enough to transform a loss in victory. The only argument justifying your statement would be that in no case we let the ennemy arrived close to the city tile (which is the truly good solution). Are we able to do so right now ?

hi ,

that effect is lost as the city grows , ... so lets build something that makes the city grow faster , a worker or granery , .... etc , ...

this way we have our bonus , it even gets higher , ....

and we get a unit or building faster , ....

have a nice day

	01-09-2002 23:50									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I have a "play ahead questin", since monachy will be activated, can we do that in our game so we can make the relevant orders.
Aggie

	02-09-2002 00:28									#15
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT A 50% increase in defense value is more than enough to transform a loss in victory. The only argument justifying your statement would be that in no case we let the ennemy arrived close to the city tile (which is the truly good solution). Are we able to do so right now ?

You would rather have 50% of 1(1.5) versus simply 2(33% better odds than yours for a swordsman upgraded with a barracks and heals FOUR TIMES AS FAST) or 3(twice the defensive value you love and healing FOUR TIMES AS FAST).

Even Firaxis programmed the AI to avoid building walls because they knew there were much better options available.

	02-09-2002 00:32									#16
	Suffering from ads?

Aggie: no, because you'll need to play into the next turn to see the effects of Monarchy (we'll be in anarchy for a turn).

	02-09-2002 00:41									#17
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

i say split the building up between the city least to be attack building barracks to make units to releave the city in most danger of attack that are making citywalls

	02-09-2002 01:07									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by DeathByTheSword i say split the building up between the city least to be attack building barracks to make units to releave the city in most danger of attack that are making citywalls

That would be a good compromise.

	02-09-2002 01:28									#19
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I agree.
Barracks in strategic locations, walls in slow-growing towns under constant threat.

	02-09-2002 01:29									#20
	Got spare money?

that way we can reinforce our critical cities (every time I want to put down 'bases' but thats another DG) with verteren units and we can build our defenses against the main german (is it german?) attack

EDIT: now just looking what the critical cities are! i havent got the time for that to busy with DGsmac

	02-09-2002 02:15									#21
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Shiber I made alittle misstatement. I mean could we go to revelution(anarchy), so we can see happiness needs. Sorry for the error.
Aggie

	02-09-2002 02:30									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb Even Firaxis programmed the AI to avoid building walls because they knew there were much better options available.

Firaxis, or you, have missed something, since the AI never (or extremely rarely) build barracks and produces mainly standard units. Their veterans status is gained in battle.

As for your comparison, its validity depends all of the time available ; with plenty of time, of course build barracks first, but the cities we are talking about are nearly under fire.

	02-09-2002 02:35									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Well, the rules state that doing something that you cannot undo (e.g. make a trade, move a unit, go to anarchy) is playing ahead. Therefore you cannot do that. Bummer.
Btw, if I was the MoE I'd raise the entertainment slider to 10% prior to the revolution. I might have even left it on 10% until we signed a peace treaty with Germany and Persia ('cause of war weariness).

	02-09-2002 05:11									#24
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Well as long as the prez is made aware there is not a problem. He can handle it.
Aggie

	02-09-2002 05:25									#25
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I suggest you consult the MoE and the city planners and then advise the president to either raise the entertainment slider or turn some laboring citizens to entertainers in Mingapulco and possibly in Here It Is.

	02-09-2002 06:22									#26
	Increase Your PM Length

Shiber, I assume you've forwarded your recommendation re: the entertainment slider to the MoE, right? If not, perhaps you should PM him...

Just a thought.

-- adaMada

	02-09-2002 15:45									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I was just about to.

	02-09-2002 16:42									#28
	Remove this text

When we go into revolution, I must make sure to check all cities and reassign, raise lux etc until there is no disorder. That reminds me - I must ask Apoc and Donal how high I can go with the lux rate if it needs more than 10% - it would only be one turn at whatever it needs to be.

	02-09-2002 17:19									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I'm sure you'll do a good job treating unhappiness. However I think the lux slider needs to stay at at least 10% until we sign a peace treaty with the Persians and the Germans, to treat war weariness.

	02-09-2002 17:40									#30
	Tired of ads?

The Persians and Germans declared war on us so war weariness should be late to come. However, we've been in war with them for quite some time. I don't know if war weariness starts to build up from the moment you switch to a government that suffers from war weariness or from the moment the war begins. If the latter is true, we'll need to keep the lux slider on at least 10% until we sign a peace treaty.