01-09-2002 21:05									#1
	DO NOT finish off America ..! Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

DO NOT finish off America ..!

Currently, they are the perfect buffer-state for the threats from the north and the east. Their land has no abundant production tiles, and will do us little good after we conquer it - it will have lots of corruption.

Only when new resources become available and they happen to be in America's land - then we must consider going to war with them.

Maybe we can trade for their Incense after they connect it.

	01-09-2002 21:07									#2
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They are a CRAPPY buffer state. They would die in a few turns, giving our enemies Incense Valley.

	01-09-2002 21:15									#3
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They would die if they're attacked, yes. But it would help us when a Civ declares war to =us= without having a RoP with the Americans.

	01-09-2002 21:18									#4
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WE DON'T WANT ANYONE ELSE TO KILL AMERICA.

We can't afford for anyone else to get Incense Valley.

	01-09-2002 21:20									#5
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In fact, the Americans are willing to pay all their gold (30) for a RoP with us. If we do this, we not only gain 30 gold, but also decrease the chances of another civ dealing with the Americans.

I think they pose no threat to us in the condition they are in.

	01-09-2002 21:45									#6
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Yes, they pose no threat, but quite simply, we want their land.

More importantly, if someone else declares war on America, then they'll get their land and we'll loose any chance of getting it. Furthermore, that doesn't seem very unlikely, considering that the Americans were willing to pay us to sign a Military Allience against Greece -- when the Americans do eventually find themselves in a war, they will very likely be destroyed and we will loose their fruitful land.

Basically, I'd be against an RoP with America -- they have nothing we want (except their land), thirty gold isn't that much, and we don't want to tie our hands to future situations.

-- adaMada

	01-09-2002 22:19									#7
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The interesting point raised here is not the RoP, which is not for sale but to be given only when WE need it, but how could we make know to all other civs that America is our vassal and must not be touch.

	01-09-2002 22:22									#8
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Simple - we annex *cough*conquer*cough* them.

	01-09-2002 22:29									#9
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America is not a buffer state. Any known civ can attack us without having to go through America. Neither Greece nor Germany, the two of our most imminent enemies, need to pass through American territory to reach our soil.
Furthermore, I recognize the fact that any cities we'll get from the Americans will be fairly corrupt but at least we'll get incense, and lots of it, and if we're quick we can monopolize incense to Greece, Germany, France and a whole lot of other nations in Abananaba Major (since the Persians aren't investing much in trade routes, it seems).

	01-09-2002 22:50									#10
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Good point by Davout... I'm not sure there is a way that we can protect america before Mutual Protection Pacts, and we should probably finish them off long before that.

I also agree with Shiber, we don't really need them as a buffer state.

Finally, I think skywalker may have proposed the only workable solution to this problem so far, lol. I'm not all that anxious to take them right now, but I don't want anyone else to have them, so....

-- adaMada

	01-09-2002 23:00									#11
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Once we wipe out America, we NEVER have to worry about the American citizens in our cities being unhappy about being Apolytonians anymore.

	01-09-2002 23:07									#12
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hi ,

later on , when we have cavalry , we should bring them down , to a civ that we can control , leave a couple of cities standing for trade , ....



have a nice day

	01-09-2002 23:27									#13
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What? Flood plains are not productive lands?
I for one believe it is our duty to convert my wayward brothers.

	02-09-2002 00:39									#14
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If we kill the Americans we can build new cities there or use their old for buffer zone.

	02-09-2002 01:41									#15
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take them out but down raze the cities we have enough time to get them operational before the industerial age (when building new cities and rebuilding conquerd cities is a waste) so when we have to power just take them out

	02-09-2002 02:13									#16
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The biggest problem with razing the american's cities is that the AI could step in and build a new city in the land we want before our own settlers get there.

If we could keep the American cities, however, we'd be much better off -- as they are in ideal land, they will probably grow fast, and once America is gone there will be little resistance from American citizens.

-- adaMada

	02-09-2002 02:17									#17
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quote: Originally posted by adaMada The biggest problem with razing the american's cities is that the AI could step in and build a new city in the land we want before our own settlers get there. If we could keep the American cities, however, we'd be much better off -- as they are in ideal land, they will probably grow fast, and once America is gone there will be little resistance from American citizens. -- adaMada

hi ,

, ...

, move a couple of our settlers in , ....

indeed the best would be to keep them , ....

have a nice day

	02-09-2002 02:21									#18
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quote: Originally posted by panag hi , , ... , move a couple of our settlers in , ....

We'd have to have our settlers there before we destroyed the American's cities -- that would mean having htem in the middle of a battle, and we'd have t osend extra defensive units along with them.

quote: indeed the best would be to keep them , ....

We could do it, but I think it'd more efficent to just keep the cities in the first place , which is what I think you mean in the above statement as well.

quote: have a nice day

You too!

-- adaMada

	02-09-2002 02:28									#19
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quote: Originally posted by adaMada We'd have to have our settlers there before we destroyed the American's cities -- that would mean having htem in the middle of a battle, and we'd have t osend extra defensive units along with them. We could do it, but I think it'd more efficent to just keep the cities in the first place , which is what I think you mean in the above statement as well. You too! -- adaMada

hi ,

indeed , if we go to rock and roll we beter be prepared , ... its a lesson for the future

if we move our units in a smart way it would only mean a couple extra units , but the would be worth it

yes indeed it would be smarter to just keep what we can get , .... this way we dont have to start to build from zero , ... if we would have more money , why not , but now , ....

have a nice day

	02-09-2002 05:08									#20
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Incense Valley looks good and we should have it but..

We annoyed the AI by attacking France, how will they react if we declare war on America? Again. Also the territory as well as being corrupt is going to be fairly vunerable sandwiched between the Greeks and Germans.

	02-09-2002 05:26									#21
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America isn't a buffer state. They're the bottom of the barrel and as most people have said, any enemy would be able to either march through them (can you say Belgium?) or just take them in a few turns, costing us the incense. We want to take America, we just need to be sure there is no cost to our reputation in the process.

	02-09-2002 05:39									#22
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Yeah, sure, it would be all well and good to go to war with America, and we'd probaqbly profit a little as you've argued, but we really don't need another blunder into the Realm of Really Pissing of The AI.

I say, leave well enough alone, we've taken enough through wars for now, let's put it all to good use domestically.

	02-09-2002 08:49									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Thud Yeah, sure, it would be all well and good to go to war with America, and we'd probaqbly profit a little as you've argued, but we really don't need another blunder into the Realm of Really Pissing of The AI.

In my experience, the AI gets "pissed off" whenever the player civ does anything to improve its position: e.g., whenever it gets big enough to be one of the largest civs, or comes into possession of a new resource or luxury ....
In other words, if we manage to play well and expand our civilization, we are going to attract declarations of war -- especially from the Germans, Persians, Aztecs, English and Russians. The threat should not prevent us from trying to improve our position -- particularly since any one of these civs will take America themselves soon enough, if we don't.

	02-09-2002 08:50									#24
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Yea, I agree with Robber.

We either need to A) Decide we don't want America (not very wise in my opinion), or B) go ahead and take it. Saying "we'd like it, but let's not take it right now" is practically saying "we don't want it after all".

-- adaMada

	02-09-2002 09:08									#25
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IMHO, the Americans are just waiting to get clobbered by the Greeks, Germans or Persians. The moment that we get peace with the Persians and Germans, we need to start moving units to take out the Americans. Their worth as a buffer state is negligible, as Floodplains are good for food but thats all. The most important thing is to take the incense valley, as that is not only a source of happiness(something we need), but a source of money( something we need even more). We should take them out while they are not a challenge, which essentialy means before they get Musketmen.

	02-09-2002 12:17									#26
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hi ,

we are going to go after them , thats for sure , but we need a nice army , one of vets , and we need to make sure that we are able to handle a war at eact front of our nation , .....

have a nice day

	02-09-2002 12:29									#27
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Evil idea.

Redeploy the swords and archers towards Abe.

Give him Republic. He will start to switch govt his next turn. Invade. No pop rushing and no production before his cities are taken.

Bwahahahaha.

	02-09-2002 13:08									#28
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Evil idea. Redeploy the swords and archers towards Abe. Give him Republic. He will start to switch govt his next turn. Invade. No pop rushing and no production before his cities are taken. Bwahahahaha.

hi ,

, are we sure 100% he will switch , ....

have a nice day

	02-09-2002 13:39									#29
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They always do as soon as they get the chance at a better government. Especially if they are at peace.

	02-09-2002 13:43									#30
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither They always do as soon as they get the chance at a better government. Especially if they are at peace.

hi ,

, do they have monarchy yet , ....

a plan should be drawn up , and a settler or two should move with the troops , ....

have a nice day