02-09-2002 19:58									#1
	Immortals rush, wtf? Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Playing in regant level, i start up with greeks and start expanding. Later on i have about 13 cities and am well implanted on the continent, and here comes my neighbours the persian with... 10 immortals, 7 warriors, 5 spearmen.

Myself i barely 1 hoplit per cities, 2 hoplite with barracks on border cities.

My first 3 borders cities are owned.

Don't you think immortals are a bit unbalanced? Knights attack power way before knights appear, and destroying the best anciaent age defender like it was nothing.

	02-09-2002 20:11									#2
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I would say the same for Hoplites: they can defend against anything but Immortals and Knights, and even then good tactics can help you prevail. I do everything I can to avoid war with Persia in the early game.

	02-09-2002 21:02									#3
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You should attack the Immortals with horsemen & swordmen, since they only have 2 defence.

	02-09-2002 22:32									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Darkworld Ark You should attack the Immortals with horsemen & swordmen, since they only have 2 defence.

...and get iron & swordsmen ASAP. There is only one effective and possible defense against Immortals - the defense in depth. You need a well-roaded battlefield, a mix of swordsmen/horsemen/archers (whatever you are able to put together) and a little bit of luck.

The key is to never let immortals attack - always attack them before they can attack you. Let them approach your units first, then - when they are in your territory, slow and unable to heal - strike (taking advantage of the roads), and withdraw to safety. Do your best to finish off wounded immortals in order to keep their numbers down (if you let them withdraw, heal, and return back to the battlefield, you will eventually be facing too many of them and the defense will become difficult). This way, with a little bit of practise, you can defend successfully even against immortals... at least I did, twice in my Civ3 career - and I remember those two (Regent) games with sort of pride...

Playing Greeks should be an extra advantage for you, as these are tough defenders if stationed upon hills or mountains, across rivers, or fortified cities.

	02-09-2002 22:41									#5
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yea, the best way to kill an immortal is to engage it before it has the chance to hit you. you should have warriors / hoplites on hills/mtns so you can see them comming, then use horsemen or swordsmen to engage them.

you may need to play a cat and mouse game, where you guess where the unit will go, and wait a tile behind that, so you can attack it the next turn.

	02-09-2002 23:13									#6
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quote: yea, the best way to kill an immortal is to engage it before it has the chance to hit you. you should have warriors / hoplites on hills/mtns so you can see them comming, then use horsemen or swordsmen to engage them.

You all miss the best way... play Persia!

	02-09-2002 23:53									#7
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And the second best way... destroy them before they have the capability to attack you.

I just did that to Rome, in a similar situation. Made them respawn in a vast jungle.

	03-09-2002 00:14									#8
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quote: Originally posted by UberKruX you may need to play a cat and mouse game, where you guess where the unit will go, and wait a tile behind that, so you can attack it the next turn.

Catapult and mouse game. Definitely hit the immortals before they hit you, preferably with horse and catapult. When they reach your town, hit them with the catapults, then pick off the weakened defenders with your horsemen, then retreat to the safety of the town. Play against the immortal's weakness.

By the way (assuming veterans) immortal v. hoplite fortified in town is 1/2, but with city walls only 1/3. A strong combined-arms defense is quite possible with hoplites, horse and catapults. But any static defense will probably lose.

	03-09-2002 02:18									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Wormwood I would say the same for Hoplites: they can defend against anything but Immortals and Knights, and even then good tactics can help you prevail. I do everything I can to avoid war with Persia in the early game.

I generally have no problem with the persians, really. Sure the immortals are a problem if at war but for some reason I mostly have no problem staying at peace with them. It is the Babylonians that are the problem of the game as they keep on massproducing those 2/2/1 "cheap to construct yet almost impossible to kill" bowmen - and they always overnumber you due to cheap constuction costs. Hammurabi always backstabs you, no matter what tribute has been given to him, if he is stronger, and he almost always is since you cannot build enough expensive swordmen to counter his bowmen-army.

Arrhrhg...I so hate Hammurabi...I hate him, I hate him, If the map generator for some reason gives me a nice map to play on, then Hammurabi kills me early
- It's happens almost every time.....


-S

	03-09-2002 03:23									#10
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My friend, you need... the Warrior Rush.

Just trim Hammie a little bit, here and there, and your problems will be over. I wouldn;t even go after towns; just get a couple of Warrior pairs nearby VERY early, and watch for Settler-Warrior pairs.

	03-09-2002 03:47									#11
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There are at least counters against an Immortal rush, but how do you defend against a Legionnary rush without using Immortals?

	03-09-2002 04:13									#12
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Gotta get to them first... at all costs. If playing Egypt, for instance, with cultural linking on, I'll not build any twons beyond Thebes, and just go all Warrior, all the time, until I know I've got Caesar in hand.

	03-09-2002 10:34									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Gotta get to them first... at all costs. If playing Egypt, for instance, with cultural linking on, I'll not build any twons beyond Thebes, and just go all Warrior, all the time, until I know I've got Caesar in hand.

My strategy is probably not so effective, but ... it is mine and I like it
Playing with the egyptians, I beat Caesar with culture flipping. The romans don't build any culture related buildings in the beginning and I try to put my cities near (and, if possiblle, between) their cities and rush some temples and libraries. Because of this culture rush I'm weak militarily and constantly paying tribute to the romans. After a while the roman cities start to flip one after another and soon Caesar becomes nothing more than a poor begger.

	03-09-2002 11:17									#14
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It's funny... but I could never wait in hope that I could conquer Rome with culture; too dangerous...

If nearby, Romans, Persians, and Iroquois need to be trimmed.

	03-09-2002 11:36									#15
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You're probably right, nearby Romans, Persians, and Iroquois are very dangerous and, like you said, they need to be trimmed. I did it in my last game, I destroyed the Iroquois with my Immortals (playing Persia).

It's just I enjoy more building, not destroying, and cities flipping to join my empire is more satisfactory to me.

Just for the record, my strategy is not only funny, it is also quite effective (though not always, and I'm sure less effective than yours). In my egyptian games the romans are always poor shadows of the great Roman Empire after I get half of their cities without fight. The rest is easy to conquer.

	03-09-2002 19:14									#16
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The Romans and Persians are two civs I will go out of my way to hurt or destroy in the very early going. Don't let them get iron! That's suicide. A targetted strike of warriors, archers or even swordsmen (depending on how hard Caesar/Xerxes has to work at getting iron hooked up) is the way to go.

Personally, I fear the legionary more than the immortal, because I can kill the immortal by attacking it (horse/sword, as described above). The legionary is... well, have you ever seen Full Metal Jacket? There is a character called "Animal Mother." That's the CivIII legionary. One tough sonufa*****. They die hard.

Generally, it is best to cripple or kill any civ that has an ancient UU. I tend to try and avoid Babylon until I have a large horseman force that I can unleash on them (thus killing them quickly, so their golden age doesn't help them). I will try to avoid very early war vs. the Aztecs as well, but no longer fear them once I have horses 'n swords. I avoid Greece like the plague until Chivalry.

To answer the original question, no, the Immortals aren't unbalancing. Powerful yes, unbalancing no. Like most of the other UU's, it gets a +1 bonus to 1 stat (+1 offense from standard swordsman). The key with immortals is that they are slow. Build some horsemen and run rings around them.

-Arrian

	03-09-2002 19:53									#17
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if i had to pick a UU i hated to fight (this seems the way the threadjack is going), i'd have to say the Impi or the Samurai.

The samuari is 4/4/2 for christs sake. Thats BETTER than a pikeman, and with it's two moves, you cant hope to retreat from a failing attack!

Same with the Impi. It's movement of 2 basically neutralizes horsemen (i prefer horses over swords most of the time).

	03-09-2002 20:42									#18
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I don't think the Samurai belongs in the discussion with Legionare and Immortal as it is a Medevial unit and essentially a Knight, so of course it is better than a pikemen.

	03-09-2002 21:11									#19
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I am shocked none of you did'nt mention this before..'Push and Plunder?' C'monnn, Easiest way to deal with Persia, Rome, Iroqoise and any other resource requireing UU is to take simple horsemen and rush towards their supplys of Iron/horses/ect and pillage the roads, meanwhile playing defense on your borders.

Avoid their UU's like the plague while your doing this though..Afterward just focus on their UU's, knock'em down, wave after wave of horsemen will suffice, and then all they'll have is puny archers which your hordes of horsemen will eat.

	03-09-2002 22:30									#20
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Uber, what is interesting is how the two traits you find impossible about the Samurai are the ones that the Knight already has... you talk about their attack and movement, which are no different from that of a knight. Given what you find abhorrent about the knight, wouldn't you be more scared of, say, a Rider than a Samurai?

	04-09-2002 00:52									#21
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quote: Originally posted by cyclotron7 Uber, what is interesting is how the two traits you find impossible about the Samurai are the ones that the Knight already has... you talk about their attack and movement, which are no different from that of a knight. Given what you find abhorrent about the knight, wouldn't you be more scared of, say, a Rider than a Samurai?

if i said attack i meant defense, sorry. a defense of 4 (a knight has 3) is better than a pikeman.

	04-09-2002 01:26									#22
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I think the Immortals are balanced, in this case the AI just did a good job.

	05-09-2002 18:06									#23
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"Later on i have about 13 cities....."

You felt unprepared when attacked. I just wanted to add that I've literally not had 13 cities before stopping to build an attacking force for ages on a standard map. The AI expand too long and it leaves them ripe for plundering. I think what you did here was REX too long.

Last edited by jshelr on 05-09-2002 at 18:14