03-09-2002 01:20									#1
	Unsettling thoughts on the war Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

This could be posted in about 5 different threads so I just made the issue its own thread.

I was out mowing the lawn today for over an hour in 100+ heat in very humid conditions. To get my mind off this, I thought about our position in the demogame. At first my thoughts were about the compromise. I felt pretty confident it would go through. So then my thoughts turned toward a peace deal in the war. This is not my area of expertise so I was merely guessing what you people would decide on. I thought about how I originally felt like waiting to hit Germany or Persia hard enough to get Monotheism or Feudalism from them.

Then I began thinking about how long it has been since Monotheism was discovered. For this reason I believe someone will discover either Theology or Chivalry in the next 5 or so turns. I’d place my bet on Theology. Does anyone remember who discovered Monotheism first? They would probably be the ones to discover Theology first. It might have been either Rome of Greece. I really was not paying too much attention at the time and my memory isn’t always very good.

I have a feeling Greece will be one of the first Civilizations to obtain it. They are one of the best economically so they would be the first to buy it. They would then use it to bring people in the war onto their side, and they would also just sell it to gain money for the war effort. England and the Aztecs would do the same thing, but they aren’t as well off economically so unless they are the first to research it, they won’t be able to buy it to bribe other civilizations.

I see two options clear:
1. Wait until we hit Germany or Persia hard enough to make them sell Theology or Chivalry cheap.
2. Join the war on the side of the Greeks or England/Aztecs by getting them to sell us the technology for a low price.
3. Buy the tech for a very high price.

This way we can either forget about the whole Chivalry issue or go straight for Education. I believe we should obtain the tech or else be left behind again.

Last edited by Apocalypse on 03-09-2002 at 03:28

	03-09-2002 01:28									#2
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Assuming we advance enough for someone to research Theology or Chivalry, I would like Togas to post some orders regarding this when a decision is made. Lets all make sure to follow what he says.

	03-09-2002 01:29									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

i dont think we do option 2 not an other war what i have seen of the cities and the roads isnt very good, our army is in poor shape and our captured cities are being disabled by waste and corruption. we have to build our nation in this troubling times. i think we have to hit germany very hard (and get rid of munich) for the tech leave persia. if we dont want to continue the war many people want i quick ending of the war, which i support read chapter 2 of Art of war by Sun Tzufor more information) so we need to buy the tech and sell it on the same turn to cover the expenses.

	03-09-2002 01:30									#4
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Option 2 is right out. The trade off between the tech and complicating relations in that way isn't worth it.

It seems that Option 1 is the optimal choice. Of course, it's up to the War Ministry to determine what our chances are in doing such a thing. We would have to REALLY hit a nation like Germany, being 2.2 times the size of us, in order to get them to capitulate a tech. Persia seems more within reach.

	03-09-2002 01:33									#5
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I don't think we have to hit Germany too hard. I bet even with a stalemate we can get it significantly cheaper. They didn't want to go to war in the first place.

	03-09-2002 01:34									#6
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I think Because of the size of germany we should attack them that would be the 3rd country (along side america and france) that would be crippled but i dont know the exact power of germany that would be for the war ministry.

EDIT: still thinking END the war and just buy the tech as cheap as possible by normal means

	03-09-2002 01:43									#7
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I fear that if we buy it normally, we won't have enough income to raise our science rate.

	03-09-2002 01:45									#8
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

yes but if we buy it from the civ who got it first and sell it to the other civs (hopefully before the first civ) we can get right too...? or am i misstaking here (havent playing a lot of civIII here bacause of SMAC )

	03-09-2002 01:51									#9
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I don't think the other civs will have enough money to buy it and make up for the loss. They aren't too fond of paying gtp.

	03-09-2002 02:28									#10
	Increase the size of your Attachments

We must avoid entering the world war at all costs!
Before we got Feudalism and Monotheism England offered us both for the price of ~200 gold, but the price of entering a war so complicated, one which could bring a disaster upon our nation, is unestimable IMHO.

	03-09-2002 03:02									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

i agree w/ Shiber 100%.

and i still feel ppl are underestimating germany. it is a major power on the rise, one we cannot take for granted. at it's current rates it's going to dominate our hemisphere sooner than you think... this gives me a new idea for stats. a ranking of the nations based upon their GAINS in the overall points... im gonna go figure it now.

	03-09-2002 03:46									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

The fact that Germany is on the verge of becoming a serious continental power suggests to me that the time to hit it, and hit it hard, is now. It's only going to get bigger and more dangerous and better defended in the future, when it's not tangled up in so many different wars. And I promise you, it's not going to leave us alone. Bismark will move against us very soon. If we take him on now, we have a good chance -- perhaps our best chance -- of seriously checking his growth. The idea of facing Germany when we are its only enemy, and it has Chivalry, and it has consolidated its border (with roads, barracks on the border cities, etc.) is truly scary. We have to hit before things reach this point.

	03-09-2002 04:48									#13
	Suffering from ads?

go apolyton

	03-09-2002 05:04									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I agree with Shiber on the World War.

As for the feasability of hitting Germany or Persia, I'll leave that to the more military inclined. I agree, however, that it might not take a very hard hit to lower the cost significantly we'd have to take (not raze, which I think would probably make them less willing to end the war) a few cities.

-- adaMada

	03-09-2002 06:01									#15
	Got spare money?

The reason we are falling behind is because we do NOTHING but war. We really need to end the war with Germany as soon as possible.

We can wage a war on Persia and still build up our infrastructure. Germany is too much, we will have to continue neglecting our cities, our science, and our markets, we will become nothing but a mercenary nation that fights wars for money and tech because we aren't able to compete with the other nations in their production of money and tech.

Persia is building infrastructure and with us as their bufferstate threatens to advance in science and then explore and make first contact with the unknown civs and reap the benefits.

WHOEVER CONTACTS THOSE CIVS FIRST WILL GAIN A HUGE ADVANTAGE.

Explore Uber Island, if its big enough we can build our Forbidden Palace down there and use it as our center of learning.

We should seriously consider moving the capital north more central to our empire.

We MUST invest in city improvements as we can't do the "Mongol" strategy of barracks, walls, and war.

Fight smarter, not harder. We need to ensure that when we're fighting a war WE do not have the inferior weapons.

I really think we can use Germany as our mercenary nation. Germany's easy to use that way. We have plenty of luxuries (especially after we take the Americans and/OR the Persians(spice and incense)) that we can trade to Germany to keep them dependent on good relations with us and their attitude to us pleasant and haul'em to war when we go.

They offer a good buffer versus England and the Aztecs, and could fight well against the Greeks.

	03-09-2002 06:04									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

It was my thinking along the lines that lead me to the "holding of munich hostage plan". We move our swords as if the attack munich. Then we see what germany will give us. If they refuse we attack.
Remember munich will be a source of dyes for germany. Losing it would be bad for them. So perhaps we can get a good bargain by threatening. Question to the people"What will a good deal be?" The advantage of this plan over actually having to attack munich is this. We have a force of 3 swords and 2 horse max in the eastern theater. If we lose one or heaven forbid 2 swords on the attack of munich we could be in serious trouble. This way one army can fight in two wars. If we get good deal for sparing munich we send this force( at the time 3word+ 1 horse toward persia. Why persia and not germany. Well simply put we don't have troops fro a2 front war. I have estimated 3 swords coming back from the French front, but it will take many turns, since there are no roads. Now we can send the warrior back to a barrack location to upgrade and that would give us 5sword in the east. I herby suggest this "We build barracks in geofront. Once we have peace with germany we move the warrior in napolitan to geofront and upgrade both warriors. By that time our army will be in the persian area and ready to attack tyre and raze sidon.
Aggie

	03-09-2002 06:08									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I like Aggie's plan but remember, they can't negotiate with us until 5 turns after they declared war..... Civ3 rules.

That's why they won't negotiate. They would've probably signed a peace treaty right after they declared war if the rules didn't force that 5 turn wait.

	03-09-2002 06:18									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

When negotiating peace, we do not actually have to take munich. If we have a few swordsmen outside it they will probably be willing to give it up peacefully.

	03-09-2002 19:05									#19
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

@Apoc:
in the anctien times no civ want to give gpt but around this time the more evolved civ are willing to give GPT and large amount of it.

	05-09-2002 05:25									#20
	Support Apolyton

Well, I was right.