03-09-2002 04:28									#1
	strange offer Increase Your PM Length

in my present game (japan, standard, diety, 6 civs, everything else random) i started alone on a nice big island but by the time i met the first other civ (sending approx. 20 suicide galleons across the ocean) i was hopelessly behind in tech (half way through ancient age techs while the 3 biggest AI civs were about 8 techs into the medieval age).

thanks to my luxuries (worldwide monopoly of two of them) i could catch up a bit (now "just" 15 techs behind the 2 top AIs). unfortunatly, the next techs are too expensive to buy just with luxuries and even a big chunk of money each time, so i'm losing contact again.

but then something really strange happened: lizzy offered me music theory for just 11 gold!!!
i've got a lot of offers by now, but this one is really strange.

is it a bribe? if so: why didn't she ask for an alliance or something else?

does anyone know, what this could mean?


btw: what can you do being so far behind in tech? russia and germany have most of the wonders, steam power and land area more than twice as big as mine. meanwhile i'm stuck in the medieval ages (5 techs - beelined to education, now reasearching banking)? any ideas? don't forget, i'm not aeson

	03-09-2002 04:32									#2
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I think she is just trying to get what she can from you.
Music Theory is a dead end tech, other than a wonder (Bach's?) it is useless.

Plus the rest of AI Civ probably already have it, so you researching it would be really quick.

	03-09-2002 05:22									#3
	Increase Your PM Length

Yeah, it's a throway tech.

The bigger problem is how to catch up. A screenshot or save would help.

In general, I'd try three things:

* Beg borrow or steal to parity in at least one branch of research, prefereably the "southern" line. Sacrifice everything to get ahead on JUST ONE TECH, and then shrewd trading should do a lot to catch up.

* Beat on a weakling, and extort.

* Use alliances to create a series of inter-AI wars; this will at least distract them from research.

Don;t worry too much about being behind; as Tube said, this lessens the cost of the techs you research yourself.

	03-09-2002 07:31									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Stop researching altogether. Shut down exenditure in science and build marketplaces and banks and just make lots of money. You can catch up pretty quickly by purchasing techs. In fact after I get Bronze working and horseriding I wont research tech until the industrial age. Instead I kick the crap out of the closest, biggest, most advanced civ and when he gives up he gives up his tech. Just got 8 techs off of Romans and I took his Great Library. I am doing this at Emperor level and I think this and the next higher level researching is a lost cause anyway because the AI can beat you hands down. Funny thing though is they never seem to have much money until the modern era.

	03-09-2002 09:58									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Bangedup Funny thing though is they never seem to have much money until the modern era.

That would be because they are trading to each other constantly.

	03-09-2002 14:48									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus The bigger problem is how to catch up. A screenshot or save would help.

it could take a while until i have time to play further
which part of the screenshot would you need? the map?

quote: * Beg borrow or steal to parity in at least one branch of research, prefereably the "southern" line. Sacrifice everything to get ahead on JUST ONE TECH, and then shrewd trading should do a lot to catch up.

no chance! as i said in my first post, i'm more than half an era behind. i could maybe go for printing press and democracy and hope that nobody's got it, but that would mean researching a non-mandatory branch

quote: * Beat on a weakling, and extort.

the weaklings were dead before i even met any civ.

quote: * Use alliances to create a series of inter-AI wars; this will at least distract them from research.

the problem: there's only 2 big civs left: germany and russia (each approx. half of the continent), if one of them should win, he would be totally invincible!

quote: Don;t worry too much about being behind; as Tube said, this lessens the cost of the techs you research yourself.

i knew it costs less to buy - but doesn't the researching take the same much time?

anyhow, thanks to everyone for you advice and tips

	03-09-2002 18:10									#7
	Full PM-box? Change here!

the more civs know of a tech the cheaper it becomes to research OR buy

Also in a large war between 2 similar sized enemies the AI will rarely fight to extinction or even to overwhelming firepower before making peace and staying there for a while. Usually they just kill each other's units and take some crappy border towns before stopping. Then again if they stop too soon you wouldn't get much of an advantage...
Then there's how to get em riled up in the first place

	03-09-2002 18:29									#8
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by sabrewolf i knew it costs less to buy - but doesn't the researching take the same much time?

No, it also takes less time to research. Be sure to set the tax rate to minimum amount of science required to get the tech in 4 turns (the minimum research rate). Check and change it if needed every turn. This will generate some extra cash for you.

	03-09-2002 18:35									#9
	Remove this text

I've now played 3 games with 1.29. In the first two games I ended up way behind on tech. Despite my considerable efforts including using a leader to build the GL (which probably gave me at least 10 techs), I could not catch up to the AI who were trading amongst themselves but not with me. In the last game I focussed on science, turning the slider up to 50% rather than my normal 30-40% and traded early with the AI. As a result I was the tech leader or co-equal the entire game. The funny part was that the damn French got a GL, built the UN two turns before me and won the game despite my being way ahead on points (I would have won easily by spacerace)

	03-09-2002 18:46									#10
	Re: strange offer Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by sabrewolf lizzy offered me music theory for just 11 gold!!! i've got a lot of offers by now, but this one is really strange. is it a bribe? if so: why didn't she ask for an alliance or something else? does anyone know, what this could mean?

Hmm perhaps she saw in which condition you are and therefore she wanted to help you a little or might be she is in love with you so use the advantage and get her civ over to your side

Well it's really something strange even as music theory is a dead end tech the AI never gives anything for more or less free to me. Perhaps they don't like me . What did you do to them in order to get such a friendly behaviour? Is there a special trick?

	04-09-2002 02:02									#11
	Remove this text

If Elizabeth is about to complete J. S. Bach's Cathedral on her next turn, she should try to trade the tech to other civs for whatever she can get, since it will be worthless in a turn and she needn't worry about them building the Wonder. And we know how crafty Lizzy is...

Still, you'd think she might ask for more for it.

If the Cathedral is already built, the tech is useless. There was a bug that caused the AI to give a slight value to such techs, so maybe you're playing on an old patch. (It's supposed to be fixed as of 1.29.) If this is the case, the tech won't let you actually build or research anything, but you might be able to sell it to other AI civs for a similarly pitiful amount.

	04-09-2002 02:09									#12
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quote: Originally posted by JohnM2433 If Elizabeth is about to complete J. S. Bach's Cathedral on her next turn, she should try to trade the tech to other civs for whatever she can get, since it will be worthless in a turn and she needn't worry about them building the Wonder. And we know how crafty Lizzy is... Still, you'd think she might ask for more for it. If the Cathedral is already built, the tech is useless. There was a bug that caused the AI to give a slight value to such techs, so maybe you're playing on an old patch. (It's supposed to be fixed as of 1.29.) If this is the case, the tech won't let you actually build or research anything, but you might be able to sell it to other AI civs for a similarly pitiful amount.

don't forget: every tech gives points for the power-chart... so everything tech is worth something - that's why i took it.

	04-09-2002 02:23									#13
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Oh, I thought only Future Technology impacts your score. Ordinary tech does too? At first that was what I assumed, given the AI's behaviour, but I took that not to be the case when I read that that behaviour was changed in a patch.

	04-09-2002 02:28									#14
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quote: Originally posted by JohnM2433 Oh, I thought only Future Technology impacts your score. Ordinary tech does too? At first that was what I assumed, given the AI's behaviour, but I took that not to be the case when I read that that behaviour was changed in a patch.

no not, the score (you're right, future techs only) ... but the power-chart (amalgam of land area, population, military strength, techs and other) ...

	04-09-2002 18:19									#15
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

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	04-09-2002 18:34									#16
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

whenever it's been offered to me, it's always offered at 11 gold pieces and they won't take any less. had it happen several times too.

as someone said above, they're just trying to scrounge money out of tech-lackeys.

always makes me laugh when the reverse is true and they are terribly behind in technology. I'm often offered Monarchy for Motorised Transportation. Yeah as if AI!

	04-09-2002 18:48									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Sounds like you're in a bad situation. Post the save. Chances are you'll have to go on a colonising spree, trying to get control of as many resources as you can and sell them off to the AI to catch up in techs.

	04-09-2002 20:34									#18
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quote: Originally posted by DrFell Sounds like you're in a bad situation. Post the save. Chances are you'll have to go on a colonising spree, trying to get control of as many resources as you can and sell them off to the AI to catch up in techs.

too late... just as i finished researching gunpowder (but no salpeter in my territory) the germans invaded my island with approx. 15 cavalry and some riflemen. their 6 point attack cut through my pikemen-defence like a hot knife through butter. all "old" cities were gone and i was left with 4 on spread around the globe... that's when i resigned

my summary:

1) even though i started on a beautiful island without an early foe (no defence needed except 2 military police for happyness) i had absolutely NO chance whatsoever because while the AI were trading techs i had to research all myself (map making to even get to know some, literature for more effective research).

2) because i didn't build a strong defence, but the AI civs had researched horseback riding, the barbs were constantly attacking (and mostly winning). only after placing 10 units across the small continent there were no new huts apearing

3) my traits were useless in this game: japan has
- religious: except cheaper temples, the "fast-switching-governement-possibility" wasn't used until i was far behing. i didn't feel like getting warrior code, mysticism and polytheism just for monarchy, because in this game i consider them all as useless
- militaristic: yeah... got some veteran and maybe 2 elite warriors against the barbarians... not really helpful.

thanks for all your tips! this was my worst deity game until now! from now on i'll give up if i'm alone...

p.s. i wanted to attach the 4000BC file, but it seems to be lost... damn...