03-09-2002 05:13									#1
	The Free and Easy Flow of Information Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

As the last chat and previous elections show, (and as the Americans learned so painfully in Earth's final century) free flow of information is the only safeguard against tyranny, as well as really convuloted and meaningless chats and elections.

That's why we need some sort of organization or government agency to obtain or gather information into single, easy to read reports. Nobody wants to scour the board looking for Minister's orders, or read dozens of election threads and hundreds of candidates' debate posts.

Let's face it, most Apolytonians are lazy. Only a few of us keep up to date on all the details. For a lot of Apolytonians, the Democracy game would be much easier, and much more fun, to play with Idiot-Proof summarys of current events, election candidates, and other vital information. I think we're finally waking up to this with the Geographic society, which summarizes the world situation on a easy to understand map, and the emergance of other statistic posts.

Even for those who like to pump up their post count reading all the threads, a summary of minister's orders would be nice to get chats running well. And with the end of summer, we're also seeing more time constrained civic leaders.

I propose that some organization be formed ASAP to deal with this situation. Whether it be a government run affair, or an independent organization, and exactly how we're going to be able to pull this off, I leave up to my esteemed readers to comment and debate on.

	03-09-2002 05:21									#2
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I'll listen to the discussion before I make my own decisions on it.

Having said that, a bit OT but related to the information overload problem, you can find a basic summary of everything that's going on in the Foreign Affairs Field in our Office Thread.

* adaMada goes ahead and gets in his manditory plug for that thread .

Ok, very sorry for going OT, back to the real issue.

Actually, I will make one small statement now to make this post a little bit relevent ... I personally think it might be a good idea, but it'd be a nightmare to set up. You'd either need one ultra-dedicated person to be doing a ton at the same time, or you'd need multiple people doing it, which begs the question of who does what. I guess you could have each person have certain responsibilities, but logistically it might take some thought to set it up...

-- adaMada

	03-09-2002 07:20									#3
	Remove this text

Exactly adaMada. It is a logistical nightmare. That's exactly why I asked for suggestions, it's a very tough problem.

I'm leaning toward having multiple people do it, one person assigned a responsibilty out of one of the categories mentioned, i.e. one summarizes elections, one minister policy, one current events, etc. , however that's so complicated I don't know if that will make the situation any better than it is now!

	03-09-2002 10:42									#4
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I for one find it difficult to find out even the most basic information, as it is often sollowed up by other posts/threads. The gazette helps,but it isn't sufficient to make informed decisions.

	03-09-2002 10:58									#5
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The Gazette is the best way to find out what has happened, from a journalistic standpoint, but if you want specific answers you often just have to do one of the following:

Check the save yourself. This often takes less time than posting a question and waiting for an answer.

Check the Turnchat/thread reports thread.

Read the Foreign Ministry Office thread -- adaMada keeps it up to date on all foreign affairs. I post an update after each turn.

PM someone who you know is active and currently online.

But as for creating an office to do this ... that's what reporters are for. We have them in the CoL. No one (other than the Gazette) seems to do the job, but the job has already been created.

--Togas

	03-09-2002 16:45									#6
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Hey!

What about UnOrthO's glorious directory? Links to everything!

	03-09-2002 17:36									#7
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There is the directory, and also I am planning on editing the top thread in each minister order thread to reflect all minister's orders to make them in one place.

What exactly are you guys wanting?

	03-09-2002 19:14									#8
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quote: I for one find it difficult to find out even the most basic information, as it is often sollowed up by other posts/threads. The gazette helps,but it isn't sufficient to make informed decisions.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Many people who do not take a major role, but may still vote, and wish to keep current with the game, cannot even find basic information even when knowing a variety of important threads (using the directory). They simply don't want to make sense of 100s of followup posts in every thread.

They want an easy to understand summary. Perhaps what we're looking for is to have threads' authors write a summary of the discussion and issues in those threads, after that discussion has run it's course.

The directory is all well and good, but one still has to read through and understand the 100s of posts that are undoubltably going to be posted in that thread. Some of us will, and post more, but many observe and vote. Unortho's plan to edit the minister's orders is exactly what we need in that sector, btw.

The gazette is very good, but not quite comprohensive enough to post a story about all the threads in the directory. Perhaps all that is needed here is an expansion, more reporters, but perhaps that would make the Gazette too bulky. As Togas says, no one seems to be doing this job except the Gazette, and I think the Gazette will not be enough as is, espcially as the game progresses.

	03-09-2002 20:08									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Thud They want an easy to understand summary. Perhaps what we're looking for is to have threads' authors write a summary of the discussion and issues in those threads, after that discussion has run it's course. The directory is all well and good, but one still has to read through and understand the 100s of posts that are undoubltably going to be posted in that thread. Some of us will, and post more, but many observe and vote. Unortho's plan to edit the minister's orders is exactly what we need in that sector, btw. The gazette is very good, but not quite comprohensive enough to post a story about all the threads in the directory. Perhaps all that is needed here is an expansion, more reporters, but perhaps that would make the Gazette too bulky. As Togas says, no one seems to be doing this job except the Gazette, and I think the Gazette will not be enough as is, espcially as the game progresses.

Check out the new orders thread, I have begun editing. I will undoubtedly become better and streamline the process with experience, but it is a start.

There is NO way the Gazette coudl ever hop to sum up all that is goin on in the forums, and all that appears in game as well. I have tried to tie the two together at every opportunity, but we are talking an average of 15 new THREADS a day, and one can only guess how many POSTS. I created the thing to help out on informing, but it IS too much for that. I estimate I would need 6-7 dedicated reporters to cover that, each assigned 5-8 threads/discussions...Currently, we have 2 editors and 3-4 reliable reporters when approached.

A summary of each discussion is very well possible, IF people will take the initiative and do it. However, most discussions revolving around the game wind up in either a minister's orders, OR as a poll. Perhaps what we need, then, is links to the relevent discussions within the orders?

	04-09-2002 01:05									#10
	Increase Your PM Length

to orders:
why not just let the ministers put their orders in one place in an organized form? then it would be easy to find them

to summary of what happened:
it is the easyest way if the player playing the game takes notes and writes up a summary in plain text of each chat.

how do we do it?
we have a turn chat thread where each department and province posts its instructions. the 1st post in it contains the data and time of the next chat and a link to the previous turn-thread as well as the save to be used.
the last posts contain mid-saves, the end-save, a summary in plain text and a technical summary as well as the logfile and a link to the next turn thread.
there is also a index of all turn-threads with the dates of the future scheduled chats.

	04-09-2002 02:23									#11
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Sean I for one find it difficult to find out even the most basic information, as it is often sollowed up by other posts/threads. The gazette helps,but it isn't sufficient to make informed decisions.

I agree with you. It's hard.

	04-09-2002 05:58									#12
	Put an end to popups!

It is hard to keep up with the details. We probably do not need to create a new office for this but instead should incourage citizens to start more newspapers. The ministers and the Apolyton government has nothing to hide so we don't really need a Missi Dominici type organization.

Disorganizer has a good idea. Have the minsiters place there orders ina topped thread.

Didn't we have a reporter position at one time? That sort of got liquidated (is that word?) didn't it?

	04-09-2002 17:14									#13
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Orders:

People wanted to discuss inside the thread, so we create a new one for each chat. They are labeled for the year they start. A topped thread would become confusing while waiting for ministers and/or their deputies to edit their orders.

What more information are you wanting? How exactly will MORE papers help? I can BARELY keep two editors active to keep the Gazette running. Anyone who is willing can help out and we can expand to include more info, but what is that info that you are wanting? Covering every little discussion that takes place would be both time consuming and boring. At least to me.

The reporter position still exists. It is not voted on, though. It is entirely seperate from the government. Me and Donal are the reporters. I have it on good authority that the constitutional convention will eliminate that position from the CoL though. As they claim there is no need for it's inclusion. It was made back when the save was not available to the public, and was put in to ensure that reporters got the save.

	04-09-2002 17:47									#14
	Remove this text

We need discussions to make up our mind on issues that are often difficult and/or controversial, but at the end of it something is done (a poll or an order). Only historians, sociologists (often) and psychiatrists (sometimes) could be interested in the detail of the discussions.

	04-09-2002 18:09									#15
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

From another nation, i also bring a idea in here which i think could work good for the games:

They have their vice-president run thru the discussions and collect relevant information for the playout ;-)


In more detail:
The have a "assembly" for the ministers where they discuss/post instructions. They also have citizen discussions. The vice bring topics from the citizen discussions to the "assembly" of the officials to be decided upon.

Btw: that is a non-chat game there...

It could also work here as well as in Fanatika:
The Vice (who has nothing else to do) collects the info and brings it to the executive people for decission.

Last edited by disorganizer on 04-09-2002 at 18:20

	04-09-2002 18:19									#16
	Put an end to popups!

We have also a VP running thru, but it is just to find some inspiration for the next Gazette.

	04-09-2002 18:21									#17
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i edited my post above a bit... and i was too slow so please reread it for further details :-P

	04-09-2002 20:54									#18
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Nothing else to do?

YEEeeeesss. I am sitting here taking it easy ALL the time...

	05-09-2002 02:39									#19
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quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx Nothing else to do? YEEeeeesss. I am sitting here taking it easy ALL the time...

Yea, I think it's important to remember that, though some vices don't do a lot, this term we've seen vices doing a ton (UnOrthO doing, wow, I don't even want to think about how much he's doing; Aggie taking over for Uber, the Regional Administrators making actual decisions about stuff) -- so far, we've had a lot of people doing a lot more than has been done in the past (not to insult anyone who was in the past, it's just the way it's turned out...)

-- adaMada

	05-09-2002 12:34									#20
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Yeah, i think UnO does do a lot, so maybe here a secretary of the state could be employed ;-)
But normally, there is game-wise not much to do for them except wait for the d-day when the pres is not there :-P

	06-09-2002 18:05									#21
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Ideas for next term to impliment if they desire:

Orders organization:

Topped thread that ONLY contains a constantly edited current orders list, like unto the top post in the orders threads now, but perhaps linking to discussions that influenced those decisions. Ministers should be the ones to provide the links to relevent discussions. No replies, no debate within this thread.

Improved directory:

Ask ministers to provide links when they create a new discussion. Easy to make a thread for that, or even reply at the bottom of the directory. Then whoever is doing it can easily find what to update. Make the names of the links more clear, perhaps.

Add results of polls to their links?

Whoever makes this could just hit quote and copy all my current work. That will make it so you just have to add to and update.

Improved Tutorial

Spiffor's is very nice, but a better one could be made that would have more links to such things as the War Academy, Machiavelli Institute, Parties, and such...